Kevin O'Connell Why?

[cstjohn17]

This is driving me insane, I know BB & SP are not fools but why a QB in round 3? why? This has caused me to lose sleep.

The O line seems like an obvious position of need, if not in 2008 definitely in 2009. I find it impossible to believe that the Patriots couldn't have found a player as good or better the Yates / Hochstein. I don't have a specific name but here is the list of O lineman drafted after O'Connell (pick 94)

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft...t/draft/tracker/position?id=46&draftyear=2008

Tackles
Anthony Collins OT KANSAS 4 13(112) Cincinnati
Tony Hills OT TEXAS 4 31(130) Pittsburgh
David Hale OT WEBER STATE 4 34(133) Baltimore
Josh Sitton OT CENTRAL FLORIDA 4 36(135) Green Bay
Breno Giacomini OT LOUISVILLE 5 15(150) Green Bay
Carl Nicks OT NEBRASKA 5 29(164) New Orleans
Barry Richardson OT CLEMSON 6 4(170) Kansas City
Nate Garner OT ARKANSAS 7 4(211) New York
Demetrius Bell OT NORTHWESTERN ST 7 12(219) Buffalo
Brandon Keith OT NORTHERN IOWA 7 18(225) Arizona
King Dunlap OT AUBURN 7 23(230) Philadelphia
Corey Clark OT TEXAS A&M 7 27(234) San Diego
Geoff Schwartz OT OREGON 7 34(241) Carolina
Kirk Barton OT OHIO STATE 7 40(247) Chicago

Guards
Chad Rinehart OG NORTHERN IOWA 3 33(96) Washington
Oniel Cousins OG UTEP 3 36(99) Baltimore
Michael McGlynn OG PITTSBURGH 4 10(109) Philadelphia
Shawn Murphy OG UTAH STATE 4 11(110) Miami
Roy Schuening OG OREGON STATE 5 22(157) St. Louis
Michael Gibson OG CALIFORNIA 6 18(184) Philadelphia
Donald Thomas OG CONNECTICUT 6 29(195) Miami
Chester Adams OG GEORGIA 7 15(222) Chicago
Mackenzy Bernadeau OG BENTLEY 7 43(250) Carolina

Centers
Cody Wallace OC TEXAS A&M 4 8(107) San Francisco
Kory Lichtensteiger OC BOWLING GREEN 4 9(108) Denver
John Sullivan OC NOTRE DAME 6 21(187) Minnesota
Steven Justice OC WAKE FOREST 6 35(201) Indianapolis
Jamey Richard OC BUFFALO 7 29(236) Indianapolis

 

[PonyExpress]

There are maybe 30 people capable of becoming quality NFl Qbs, at any given time, on planet earth. The Pats just got one at the end of rd 3.

IMO O'Connell has as much potential as Joe Flacco.

Maybe Brady will never miss a game; maybe he will. maybe he'll decide to retire early; maybe he won't.

It never hurts to prepare for all contigencies, especially at the most important position in sports.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

There are maybe 30 people capable of becoming quality NFl Qbs, at any given time, on planet earth. The Pats just got one at the end of rd 3.

IMO O'Connell has as much potential as Joe Flacco.

Maybe Brady will never miss a game; maybe he will. maybe he'll decide to retire early; maybe he won't.

It never hurts to prepare for all contigencies, especially at the most important position in sports.

The NFL is a QB league, however we went into last year without much, if anything behind Brady. I tend to think that the poor play of Cassel (think Miami game) and his pending FA had BB thinking of upgrading the position. I do not know yet if O'Connell brings anything as far as passing goes to the table, but he can scrabble in a pinch and for a big guy, he ran all over the place last year.

All that being said however, I really liked Collins of Kansas at ROT. He is nasty and we need nasty. At ROG I really liked McGlynn of Pitt, again, he is nasty and we need nasty.

 

[captain stone]

Besides Collins & McGlynn, I was also intrigued by the physical potential of the still-raw Oniel Cousins. I was really PO'ed that Roy Schuening wasn't taken with our 4th-rounder or the 5th-rounder that was used to trade up for...Matt Slater. I even would've been OK if our 6th-rounder had been used on Steven Justice as Koppen's backup. Heck, if our 7th-rounder hadn't been thrown away for Slater, it could've been used to select Kirk Barton or Bentley College's first-ever NFL Draft choice, Mackenzy Bernadeau.

Thats a lotta missed chances there. The FO better be right this year, because it sure wasn't right last year.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Besides Collins & McGlynn, I was also intrigued by the physical potential of the still-raw Oniel Cousins. I was really PO'ed that Roy Schuening wasn't taken with our 4th-rounder or the 5th-rounder that was used to trade up for...Matt Slater. I even would've been OK if our 6th-rounder had been used on Steven Justice as Koppen's backup. Heck, if our 7th-rounder hadn't been thrown away for Slater, it could've been used to select Kirk Barton or Bentley College's first-ever NFL Draft choice, Mackenzy Bernadeau.

Well, that's funny, because pretty much everyone at camp is raving about Slater right now. . . .

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Well, that's funny, because pretty much everyone at camp is raving about Slater right now. . . .

Raving about Slater as a return guy, let's hope he can play defensive special teams, otherwise where is the versatility that BB craves?

 

[BelichickFan]

Raving about Slater as a return guy, let's hope he can play defensive special teams, otherwise where is the versatility that BB craves?

Slater has shown well (according to reports) in various aspects of ST (and has flashed as a WR too), but if he ends up being a great returner he's well worth the pick - both for production and keeping starters like Hobbs and Maroney off ST. As of this moment, and a game hasn't been played yet, I am very happy with the Slater pick.

 

[pats_premi]

Raving about Slater as a return guy, let's hope he can play defensive special teams, otherwise where is the versatility that BB craves?

I guess lots of people are raving about Hester for his kick/punt return ability. If I remember correctly, Hester was taken in the second round and he did not have a true position in college (similar to Slater). So if Slater is half as good as Hester in the return game then I think using fifth round pick on him is worth it ?
One other thing, Patriots used 3 low round picks on the offensive linemen last year and non of them made the team.. so who knows.

 

[cstjohn17]

Drafting Slater is fine, once you get past the first 3 rounds a draft picks chances of having any impact are about 10%.

What about drafting O'Connell? this why I am losing sleep. Neal is likely to start on the PUP and now the Patriots are bringing in guys like Barry 'frickin' Stokes.

 

[captain stone]

The right side of the OL is very, very muddled right now.

Will Barry Stokes be tried at G or T, or both? Is he any good at either one?
Can O'Cal establish himself at RT?
Will Kaczur suffer from withdrawl symptoms, and will we notice the difference?
Is McMahon just TC fodder, or can he become the backup RG/RT?
Can Connolly provide quality versatility, incl. Center, in addition to youth & size?
Will we again have to suffer Hochstein's impersonations of a turnstile?
Can Yates stay healthy, and will it matter?
And most importanly, how badly hurt is Neal?

The FO is playing with fire, and Brady's health, by not having been more pro-active during the off-season.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I guess lots of people are raving about Hester for his kick/punt return ability. If I remember correctly, Hester was taken in the second round and he did not have a true position in college (similar to Slater). So if Slater is half as good as Hester in the return game then I think using fifth round pick on him is worth it ?
One other thing, Patriots used 3 low round picks on the offensive linemen last year and non of them made the team.. so who knows.

Two of those three are on other teams rosters though.

If Slater is half as good as Hester that will mean something like 5 or 6 return TD's in the next two seasons. I would take that.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, I would have drafted a guard, rather than pass the pick forward to 2009. However, it must be noted that Belichick is absolutely fine with one of the very top left sides in the business (Light, Mankins and Koppen). There are four OT's competing for RT reps. Is the a problem at RG. The FO knows. We do not.

OT
Let's have a reality check. We have five OT's that have started in this league. Light, Kaycur, O'Callaghan and Britt have all started for us, and Ross has been a starter.

OG
Hochstein and Yates are acceptable backups to Belichick and Dante. Neal's health is the key issue on the OL, which is why we have had a procession of free agent OL's including Stokes.

The right side of the OL is very, very muddled right now.

Will Barry Stokes be tried at G or T, or both? Is he any good at either one?
Can O'Cal establish himself at RT?
Will Kaczur suffer from withdrawl symptoms, and will we notice the difference?
Is McMahon just TC fodder, or can he become the backup RG/RT?
Can Connolly provide quality versatility, incl. Center, in addition to youth & size?
Will we again have to suffer Hochstein's impersonations of a turnstile?
Can Yates stay healthy, and will it matter?
And most importanly, how badly hurt is Neal?

The FO is playing with fire, and Brady's health, by not having been more pro-active during the off-season.

 

[patchick]

Drafting Slater is fine, once you get past the first 3 rounds a draft picks chances of having any impact are about 10%.

What about drafting O'Connell? this why I am losing sleep. Neal is likely to start on the PUP and now the Patriots are bringing in guys like Barry 'frickin' Stokes.

I'm a little confused about the premise of this thread, linking O'Connell and the OL. People are concerned about the right side of the OL, fine. But the Pats had plenty of draft picks and somehow it's because of Kevin O'Connell that they chose to spend NONE of them on o-linemen?

Personally I think it was a canny pick, a combination of luxury and value that only a very good team can afford. You just don't see that many guys with 100% of the building blocks: an ideal NFL frame, exceptional athleticism, terrific arm strength, high intelligence and strong leadership ability. Yes, O'Connell played for a lousy program, had lousy coaching and has a lot to learn (and unlearn). But he'll have time to do that in New England, where there is zero pressure for him to do anything but learn. (Imagine him at Jets training camp, with the fans desperately waiting for a savior to unseat Pennington and Clemens!) Of course he's a risk, but at the bottom of the 3rd, who isn't?

Every year fans grumble about the Pats lacking a "real" backup QB, but when they spend a mid-round pick on a QB we scream "why?" I'm happy to wait and see on this guy.

 

[IcyPatriot]

When we get a draft pick for Cassell nobody will complain that we took O'Connell.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Yes, I would have drafted a guard, rather than pass the pick forward to 2009. However, it must be noted that Belichick is absolutely fine with one of the very top left sides in the business (Light, Mankins and Koppen). There are four OT's competing for RT reps. Is the a problem at RG. The FO knows. We do not.

OT
Let's have a reality check. We have five OT's that have started in this league. Light, Kaycur, O'Callaghan and Britt have all started for us, and Ross has been a starter.

OG
Hochstein and Yates are acceptable backups to Belichick and Dante. Neal's health is the key issue on the OL, which is why we have had a procession of free agent OL's including Stokes.

I don't include Stokes or Ross as players, just camp bodies. I am concerned that there is now a noticable drop off when Hochstien comes in for the oft injured Neal, and career to date, Yates has not proven he can play a full season.

I would love to see O'Callaghan or Britt win the ROT spot and move Kazcur to ROG in Neal can not come back from injury.

 

[cstjohn17]

I'm a little confused about the premise of this thread, linking O'Connell and the OL. People are concerned about the right side of the OL, fine. But the Pats had plenty of draft picks and somehow it's because of Kevin O'Connell that they chose to spend NONE of them on o-linemen?

Personally I think it was a canny pick, a combination of luxury and value that only a very good team can afford. You just don't see that many guys with 100% of the building blocks: an ideal NFL frame, exceptional athleticism, terrific arm strength, high intelligence and strong leadership ability. Yes, O'Connell played for a lousy program, had lousy coaching and has a lot to learn (and unlearn). But he'll have time to do that in New England, where there is zero pressure for him to do anything but learn. (Imagine him at Jets training camp, with the fans desperately waiting for a savior to unseat Pennington and Clemens!) Of course he's a risk, but at the bottom of the 3rd, who isn't?

Every year fans grumble about the Pats lacking a "real" backup QB, but when they spend a mid-round pick on a QB we scream "why?" I'm happy to wait and see on this guy.

I guess I feel better with an 80 year veteran (Flutie, Vinnie) than paying someone's tuition at the end of bench. I don't really view the NFL as a developmental league, roster spots are important. I picked the 3rd round pick for two reasons, drafting a QB didn't and still doesn't make any sense to me and drafting a O Line would improve an area of weakness. A 3rd round G should be able to perform at the same level as Yates in year 1 with more upside.

If Neal is able to take some snaps in the preseason I might feel better, if he goes on the PUP list and misses the first 6 games then the QB pick looks foolish and self-gratifying, IMO.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I guess I feel better with an 80 year veteran (Flutie, Vinnie) than paying someone's tuition at the end of bench. I don't really view the NFL as a developmental league, roster spots are important. I picked the 3rd round pick for two reasons, drafting a QB didn't and still doesn't make any sense to me and drafting a O Line would improve an area of weakness. A 3rd round G should be able to perform at the same level as Yates in year 1 with more upside.

If Neal is able to take some snaps in the preseason I might feel better, if he goes on the PUP list and misses the first 6 games then the QB pick looks foolish and self-gratifying, IMO.

Good point, who starts at ROG if Neal goes PUP? Hochstein?" Yates? Neither makes me feel very comfortable.
If I am KC, I stunt Dorsey to Yates' side on every passing play.

 

[cstjohn17]

Good point, who starts at ROG if Neal goes PUP? Hochstein?" Yates? Neither makes me feel very comfortable.
If I am KC, I stunt Dorsey to Yates' side on every passing play.

This is a good article on the O Line by Ross Tucker, by his estimation the RG receives the most 1:1 matchups.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ross_tucker/04/02/oline.rankings/index.html

One of the cat and mouse games I am interested in is how teams attack the Patriots right side and what the Patriots do about it. Do they play the TE over the right tackle? Run the ball at the rush, run the ball away form the rush? Throws screens to the right?

It reminds me of the Princess Bride... "So you think that I know you think my right side is weak?"

 

[patchick]

Good point, who starts at ROG if Neal goes PUP? Hochstein?" Yates? Neither makes me feel very comfortable.

I agree with that, and IF the Pats had concerns about Neal's health then that position clearly should have been more of a priority. If not, though, then we're in the odd position of saying "why did they waste a pick on a backup QB when they could have had a backup RG?"

Honestly, I was looking OT in the draft too. But after that crazy run on the position in the early rounds, I figured it wasn't in the cards. When a guy like John Greco goes at #65 overall, that's not a great sign for value. Oniel Cousins and Anthony Collins, ironically, remind me of O'Connell: impressive physical specimens with little experience who need a lot of work on their technique. Not guys you'd want to put in front of Brady to start the season -- and for that matter, not guys who match the classic Pats OL draft profile.

 

[patchick]

BTW, I should say that the name I was shouting at the screen at #94 was Red Bryant. I think the lack of an NT draftee was at least as surprising as the the lack of OL.