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LaMont Jordan signed, Robert Ortiz waived


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Just because the Pats haven't carried an extra RB in the past doesn't mean they won't this year. A year ago, we wouldn't have thought that the offense was going to air it out to a historic degree. Belichick learns from the past and stays ahead of the curve in an evolving game, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to at least allow for the possibility that perhaps he sees having 4 RBs that are too good for the shadow roster (plus a FB) as a necessity for the coming season.

Especially when the top RB has a bit of an injury history and the other 2 are both over 30.
 
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Have any of you guys seen Lamont Jordan? The dude is a burly 5-10 and 230 lbs. He definitely could bring a power running dimension to the Pats offense that it hasn't had since Corey Dillon. For that aspect alone, I think he makes the team. Count me as excited at this pickup!

368jordan.jpg


PS Those guns are ridiculous!
 
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I (and others) have been advocating for a red zone and short yardage back for years. We finally have one. An obvious bonus is that Jordan could started if needed.

The basic fact is that running backs get injured. Morris is coming back off injuries. The patriots would have been better off with Jordan late last year, and likely this year. And, yes, our red zone offense is better with Jordan on on the field.

The team has carried nine receivers for a few years, even though all the running backs are required to be quality receivers, and are usually playing in the four and five receiver sets. This just isn't needed. We're fine with five wide receivers and three tight ends. This leaves room for five running backs.
 
I'm looking not at what was done, but indicators as to what can be done. You don't get 70 receptions in a season without being a decent receiver because when you average 5 catches per gaem, yhe other teams take notice and make adjustments. They do for Faulk, too. Total stats are often a function of opportunities, but clearly both guys have shown that they can get the job done when called on repeatedly. What I meant was that I was surprised Joprdan did get so many receptions and if he is a good receiver, he meets one of the requirements for a third down back. The other two are blitz pickup and running the ball. There is no doubt in my mind that Jordan is a better runner than Faulk based on his gashing us when he was with the Jets.

We all know Faulk's abilities. Thinking that no one can possibly equal those abilities is silly. Whether Jordan can give Faulk a run for his money depends on how well Jordan block in pass protection. For that we will see. But I would not automatically say that one is better overall than the other at this point.

Third down back needs to pass block, catch the ball, and run the ball. If Faulk indeed does all these things better, then it is no contest. But I suspect that they are both good receivers, that Faulk is a better blocker, and that Jordan is a better runner. I think this will be an excelent camp competition and that it is way to early to say that the outcome is decided.

Last year, Kevin Faulk was more effective in the passing game than Lamont Jordan's greatest receiving season three years ago, as per Football Outsiders which analyzes down, distance, situation, clock, etc. By over 30%!

2007 has more predictive value than 2005.

The only thing Jordan does (in this comparison) better than Faulk is run, the least important aspect of the three major parts of being a third-down back.
 
Just because the Pats haven't carried an extra RB in the past doesn't mean they won't this year. A year ago, we wouldn't have thought that the offense was going to air it out to a historic degree. Belichick learns from the past and stays ahead of the curve in an evolving game, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to at least allow for the possibility that perhaps he sees having 4 RBs that are too good for the shadow roster (plus a FB) as a necessity for the coming season.

Especially when the top RB has a bit of an injury history and the other 2 are both over 30.

I think the argument against carrying 5 RBs is pretty solid, but not because they have never carried 5 before. I think they could carry 4 QBs. They will probably want to carry extra DBs because of questions as far as starters and depth at those positions. They may want to carry extra LBs because there is no guaranteed starter next to Bruschi, depth has been an issue at that position, and Bruschi is up there in age.

Look at the free agent market right now for RBs. There are still some decent names out there. If Morris gets cut, he may not even get picked up and would be available for the Pats later in the season. Or at least another quality back up might be.

I just don't see the Pats carrying 5 RBs at least unless other positions that may require extra bodies work themselves out in the preseason.
 
I have listened and read your positions.

But you forget something. Bill and Scott build teams. BB wants the very best 53 he can get; and the best 7 Taxi that they 'll let him keep; and a good shadow roster too.

One of the ways they do that, is to keep their eyes open and when a good player shows up on the market they move to add him to the club. Sometimes they have to let him find a role, to fit in.

This Offense is awesome. I have difficulty identifying any player at any position who is not capable of being at least a capable starter. There simply are no scrubs to be found. I have never seen a Team like that.

Perhaps #3 TE: Spach/Stupar/Pollard.

Perhaps #5 RB Evans/Eckel;

Perhaps #2 QB Cassel/Gutierez/Oconnel.

These are the only positions in possible question.

But Pollard used to be a Star. Can he dig deep when called on occasionally to do a merely adequate job? Probably.

Can Evans/Eckel do a yeoman effort? Probably, because they did so last season. But little more. No gaudy 4.+ ypc Lamont ? certainly.

Finally what about reserve QB? Who knows? But Cassell has apparently looked much more confident and poised this camp, according to Reiss, than heretofore. Gutierrez is more than a rook now. O'Connell he's a wet behind the ears Rook. Some other season.

None of the QBs is tiny, everyone has a live arm. This isn't Noodleville with Penny, KC and Ainge competing without an NFL arm amongst them.

Could any of the reserves do a Rothlesburger and merely hand off all season, throw ten passes per game, and win? My bet is now... Yes. Especially because it's more likely that they would be handing off to quality backs throughout the year. Think of Lamont as a partial insurance upgrade boost for the #2 QB. And then there is always the shadow; Vinny Testeverde is waiting for a phone call.

The best part of all. They all fit onto the 53, and the Pats are under the CAP by $10 million, so we can afford them...:D:eek::D:)
 
Last year, Kevin Faulk was more effective in the passing game than Lamont Jordan's greatest receiving season three years ago, as per Football Outsiders which analyzes down, distance, situation, clock, etc. By over 30%!
I understand this, but as I said, stats are often a function of opportunity. Do you really believe that Faulk's and Jordan's stats would be unchanged in Faulk had been a Raider and Jordan a Patriot?

The stats only show that both players are capable of being receivers and RBs, and can get the job done if called upon.

The question left is pass blocking, and then the tricky part about analyzing which player will help the team the most in 2008. I just think it is too early to decide one player over the other, and think (if it comes down to 4 RBs), that Jordan has a chance to unseat Faulk.
 
Isn't it nice to be talking football again, and to put all those dumb May-June threads in the hopper?
 
Lamont Jordan Signing

I love this move. While I don't think he is a premier #1 back, I think he will solidify the backfield when Moroney needs a break. Hopefully it will keep him healthy all year by cutting down his carries a bit. What do you think?
 
I just think it is too early to decide one player over the other, and think (if it comes down to 4 RBs), that Jordan has a chance to unseat Faulk.

Just a guess, but maybe they go 5 RB's this year, and Faulk retires next year?
 
Does Jordan have the size to play fullback?
 
Without going through three pages, here's two things to remember:

1) Jordan was leading the AFC in Rushing last year when he had a fall out with Kiffin.
2) He is one of the top 3-4 RBs in the NFL in the passing game. Great hands, shifty, and can pick up the blitz.

This is a great, great signing. He can help us.
I'd like to elaborate a bit on this, since I got stuck watching a lot of Oakland games the last few years...

Jordan had a great 2005 season and a down 2006 season. He started off the 2007 season ON FIRE. He was an absolute beast. He had close to 100 yards at the half against Miami when a tackle from behind messed up his back and sidelined him for several games. Justin Fargas (like Welker, a guy you just have to root for) took over and played with a ton of heart, clearly winning over Kiffin. When Jordan came back, he either came back too soon or the injury really took its toll on him because he was s-l-o-w as heck and extremely ineffective. Kiffin outright benched him in favor of Fargas the rest of the way and Jordan sulked. I'm not shocked the Raiders were trying to trade him as Kiffin clearly had Jordan in his doghouse.

If Jordan on the Pats is the same guy last year prior to halftime of the Miami game, then the Pats stole a gem because that Jordan was absolutely awesome. If Jordan is "Marion Butts 1994" like he was when he returned from injury and/or the moody guy who sulked on the bench late last year, then the Pats won't waste much time keeping him on the roster. I hope he's the former.

Regards,
Chris
 
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I understand this, but as I said, stats are often a function of opportunity. Do you really believe that Faulk's and Jordan's stats would be unchanged in Faulk had been a Raider and Jordan a Patriot?

The stats only show that both players are capable of being receivers and RBs, and can get the job done if called upon.

The question left is pass blocking, and then the tricky part about analyzing which player will help the team the most in 2008. I just think it is too early to decide one player over the other, and think (if it comes down to 4 RBs), that Jordan has a chance to unseat Faulk.

Jordan unseat Faulk?

Won't happen, and this is nothing against Jordan.

Faulk adds a wrinkle to the Pats' offense that no other back in the league could. The number of passes a back catches doesn't tell the whole story -- it's important to consider where and how the back caught these balls. Jordan runs routes like a pass-catching fullback, coming out of the backfield, and catching balls thrown behind the line or a yard or two downfield at most.

Faulk, meanwhile, is as comfortable in the Patriots' offense split out as a wide receiver as he is in the backfield, and its being used thus that he did most of his damage as a receiver last year, because he can run short routes and -- most importantly -- make site reads with his QB like a wide receiver. When Faulk is in the huddle, the Pats' offense has a very dangerous versatility -- they love to line up with Brady under center and Faulk as the lone back, and then have Faulk motion wide and Brady back into shotgun. Faulk ends up being covered on a slant or short hook by a LB who has no shot at staying with him.
 
listening to the PFW camp cast, I have to agree to the notion that he could share some snaps with Faulk and play his type of RB, as he had somewhere like 70 catches during one season in Oakland

so maybe Maroney/Morris & Faulk/Jordan?
 
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Jordan unseat Faulk?

Won't happen, and this is nothing against Jordan.

Faulk adds a wrinkle to the Pats' offense that no other back in the league could. The number of passes a back catches doesn't tell the whole story -- it's important to consider where and how the back caught these balls. Jordan runs routes like a pass-catching fullback, coming out of the backfield, and catching balls thrown behind the line or a yard or two downfield at most.

Faulk, meanwhile, is as comfortable in the Patriots' offense split out as a wide receiver as he is in the backfield, and its being used thus that he did most of his damage as a receiver last year, because he can run short routes and -- most importantly -- make site reads with his QB like a wide receiver. When Faulk is in the huddle, the Pats' offense has a very dangerous versatility -- they love to line up with Brady under center and Faulk as the lone back, and then have Faulk motion wide and Brady back into shotgun. Faulk ends up being covered on a slant or short hook by a LB who has no shot at staying with him.

Very insightful post. Thanks and...

:welcome:

I suspected as much about Jordan's usage in the passing game but that was only based on the fact that most starters aren't used the way Faulk is.
 
I don't think Faulk and Jordan will be competiting for a position. Jordan will be competing with Morris. Any talk about Jordan replacing Faulk is just not right. Jordan is going to be our smashmouth RB for short yardage situations and also a receiving threat or basically Sammy Morris' role from last year.

As for Jordan's past, he has shown he is best used sparingly. I think if he is used as a fulltime starter, he wears down. He has the potential of being a potent weapon in a three man rotation with Maroney and Faulk with Maroney being the lead back and Jordan and Faulk coming in for situations.
 
Jordan unseat Faulk?

Won't happen, and this is nothing against Jordan.

Faulk adds a wrinkle to the Pats' offense that no other back in the league could. The number of passes a back catches doesn't tell the whole story -- it's important to consider where and how the back caught these balls. Jordan runs routes like a pass-catching fullback, coming out of the backfield, and catching balls thrown behind the line or a yard or two downfield at most.

Faulk, meanwhile, is as comfortable in the Patriots' offense split out as a wide receiver as he is in the backfield, and its being used thus that he did most of his damage as a receiver last year, because he can run short routes and -- most importantly -- make site reads with his QB like a wide receiver. When Faulk is in the huddle, the Pats' offense has a very dangerous versatility -- they love to line up with Brady under center and Faulk as the lone back, and then have Faulk motion wide and Brady back into shotgun. Faulk ends up being covered on a slant or short hook by a LB who has no shot at staying with him.
Excellent point. There was an example of this in a game last year where Faulk lined up beside Brady in a pass-protect position, then split out wide, no one followed him and he took a pass in for a TD.

He also has the end zone and 4th down direct snap play, which is as effective when it isn't used as when it is.

When you think about his competition, Morris has only played a few games with Brady and Jordan hasn't played any. Faulk has a complete knowledge of the offense, comfort with Brady developed over years, and the ability to execute many, many aspects of it nearly flawlessly. His blitz pickup is superb (though I hear Mayo blew up everyone but Morris).
 
Jordan unseat Faulk?

Won't happen, and this is nothing against Jordan.

Faulk adds a wrinkle to the Pats' offense that no other back in the league could.
I know you guys like Faulk, and so do I, but now we are getting silly. There are a lot of backs who do what Faulk does, and who would be productive in our system.

Don't make too big a deal of how passes are caught. Without looking up the actual stats, I suspect that both guys average around 8 yards per catch.

LaMont Jordan has made the RB position a very interesting one in camp, right up there with the QB and CB competition.

Before you get locked into a "this could never happen" scenario, who would have guessed in early 2004 that a 5th round pick would unseat Damien Woody?

Fans get so emotional about their favorites they cannot imagine someone unseating them, even to the point where they think on third down we are better off with Faulk coming out of the backfield than LT.

Let's watch and see how it all unfolds. That's the fun of TC. Watching to see who the surprises are.

The differences between the production of Jordan and Faulk are not that far apart, and no one has yet told me that these stats everyone is so locked into would be the same for both Faulk and Jordan would be the same if they had each been on the other's team the last few years. For instance:

Excellent point. There was an example of this in a game last year where Faulk lined up beside Brady in a pass-protect position, then split out wide, no one followed him and he took a pass in for a TD.
Jordan lined up next to McCown and Tuiasasopo and God knows who else and did the same thing. :D

For years we said that Brady was a better QB than Manning because Manning had better WRs. The same works for receiving. As another case in point, look at Moss's stats when he was with the Vikes, then the stats for the Raiders, then the stats for the Pats. Or look how well Meion Branch fared with Hasselbeck and the Seahawks instead of Brady and the Pats.

That's all I'm saying. Think beyond the stat sheet.
 
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I don't think Faulk and Jordan will be competiting for a position. Jordan will be competing with Morris. Any talk about Jordan replacing Faulk is just not right. Jordan is going to be our smashmouth RB for short yardage situations and also a receiving threat or basically Sammy Morris' role from last year.

As for Jordan's past, he has shown he is best used sparingly. I think if he is used as a fulltime starter, he wears down. He has the potential of being a potent weapon in a three man rotation with Maroney and Faulk with Maroney being the lead back and Jordan and Faulk coming in for situations.
Excellent points. We fans think "how do we replace XXX" when a player leaves. Coaches don't think that way. They find the best player they can get and change the game plan to suit the new player strengths. That's how we have Watson and Thomas instead of Watson and Graham. Thomas does not do what Graham did. He is not expected to.

Likewise, it is an oversimplification to say that Jordan is competing against Faulk or competing against Morris. BB has a bunch of RBs, and he will end up hte the GROUP of RBs that is the best he can put together. If Faulk is the only decent blitz pickup guy, he'll be a lock. BUt if Maroney proves himself a great third down back and Jordan can pick up the blitz AND be a "third and goal from the one guy" the combo may be more valuble of Maroney and Jordan may be more useful than Maroney and Faulk.

None of our backs are three down, start to finish backs. Oakland's big mistake was taking a aguy who was extremely effective at spelling Martin and making him the feature back. Maroney platooned all through college and I don't see him as an every down back. Morris and Jordan were utilized sparingly in Buffalo/Miami and NYJ/Oakland, and Faulk tends to fumble when he carries too much, and isn't an everydown back anyway. His great running stats come from running on obvious passing downs.

Only about three years ago (pre-Dillon) we used to complain when we didn't have one feature back, and derided a two-back system as "running back by committee." Now we think that two RBs isn't near enough.
 
I know you guys like Faulk, and so do I, but now we are getting silly. There are a lot of backs who do what Faulk does, and who would be productive in our system.

Don't make too big a deal of how passes are caught. Without looking up the actual stats, I suspect that both guys average around 8 yards per catch.

LaMont Jordan has made the RB position a very interesting one in camp, right up there with the QB and CB competition.

Before you get locked into a "this could never happen" scenario, who would have guessed in early 2004 that a 5th round pick would unseat Damien Woody?

Fans get so emotional about their favorites they cannot imagine someone unseating them, even to the point where they think on third down we are better off with Faulk coming out of the backfield than LT.

Let's watch and see how it all unfolds. That's the fun of TC. Watching to see who the surprises are.

The differences between the production of Jordan and Faulk are not that far apart, and no one has yet told me that these stats everyone is so locked into would be the same for both Faulk and Jordan would be the same if they had each been on the other's team the last few years. For instance:

Jordan lined up next to McCown and Tuiasasopo and God knows who else and did the same :D

If I appeared sentimental about Faulk, I assure you it was because the point I was making dealt only in what he brings to the table. I'm fond of him after all these years, but not to the point of being blinded to some simple facts: he is a sub-par rusher with negligible power and merely adequate burst and speed who gets by on vision and experience, an aging player for whom durability has never been a strong suit, and a player prone to fumbling when overworked.

What he does so well is on the periphery of a typical RB's skillset, and as such, you'd never want him to be "the guy" on your team: his value to the Pats has and always will be as a supplemental player to the offense.

That said, he does have some unique talents, and BB + McDaniels have gotten better and better over the years at putting them to good use. Out of all NFL RBs, only Brian Westbrook is as fluid and capable a route-runner when split wide as Faulk. (Unlike Faulk, Westbrook is also a top-notch rusher.) Other backs might rack up receiving yards out of the backfield, but they do it catching a much higher % of their passes behind the LOS, gaining yards using more typical RB-like abilities. Faulk can run routes and catch passes from just about anywhere along the width of the field, and catches the ball 6 yards out as often as not.

Now, you tell me not to make a big deal about how passes are caught. I'm sorry, but I just don't see any sense in complying. Raw numbers don't tell you a whole lot about what a player brings to the table. They don't say anything about what kinds of situations a player is useful in, what kinds of offensive schemes he works well in. Faulk fits in perfectly with the spread offense the Pats favored during much of last year. His versatility as a pass catching route running back allows Brady to get the team to the line, read the defense, and call plays that will get the matchups he wants.

The difference in the kind of pass-catching that Faulk excels at won't be told in raw numbers, but would only come out if you start looking at success-rate: Faulk won't take over a game for you and rack up a ton of yards making guys miss and breaking big gains, but last year, when Brady absolutely NEEDED six or seven yards on a play, it was usually Faulk or Welker he looked for.

So when I say that Jordan won't unseat Faulk, it's not because I don't think Jordan doesn't have his own ways of contributing, but rather because Jordan's talents don't repeat Faulks but complement them. He's a beast, a back with the kind of burst and power the Pats haven't had since '04 Dillon, only with more breakaway or corner-turning speed than Dillon had at that point. I'm very excited to see what he can do in the Pats' offense. If he can stay healthy, I think he and Maroney will split the lionshare of the rushing carries, and I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Jordan emerge as the guy BB leans on down the stretch.

So when I say that Jordan can't unseat Faulk it's not because I have such a high opinion of Faulk, I just don't see them as being in direct competition.
 
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