This LB corps could be dominant!

[puffyme]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

LB has consistently been strength of this team. No doubt this will continue this year

 

[psychoPat]

But Can They Call The Game?

The possibilities seem to be there, alright.
But i keep thinking that an ILB is the Patriots' signal-caller.

Tedy and Junior do that ...
but then leave exploitable holes due to aging athlete syndrome.

I'd love to have the fast, quick, young guys in there.
But can they call the game from behind the plate?

 

[Leave No Doubt]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

Well the upside for me on this,is if he does have a big year.....and ILB is the place for him to sprout his wings....You guys dont have him locked up the following year.Maybe Arizona will come in and offer him the big bucks.It pains me to see any former NYJ playing for the Patriots cept maybe Doug Brien might look good in silver and blue.

They'll lock him up if he ends up "sprouting his wings" here, count on that LB is a position they covet and one they will pay for if things work out.
I don't know that much about him but just because he sucked with the Jets, who suck, does not mean he sucks.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

I think to some degree it was lack of interest.Its not like teams were worried about paying him a huge contract.I realize free agents will move slower or faster depending on need so I will give ya that.

And to be honest I actually liked Victor as a player for the Jets,Just hoped he'd develop into something good,but he was just always average.Wish him luck.Dont wish you luck,Just him

With the players surrounding him on the Jets if Hobson were an average player, he would look poor because he has to compensate for the lack of talent surrounding him.
An 'average player' at ILB on the Pats with the talent surrounding him would be a great addition.
In other words Hobson would have had to play like a stud for the Jets D to be good. All he has to do here is be an average guy who does his job for the Pats D to be good.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

Re: But Can They Call The Game?

The possibilities seem to be there, alright.
But i keep thinking that an ILB is the Patriots' signal-caller.

Tedy and Junior do that ...
but then leave exploitable holes due to aging athlete syndrome.

I'd love to have the fast, quick, young guys in there.
But can they call the game from behind the plate?

That's a good question; nobody's better than Bru, and Junior too. Mentoring is one thing, but it'll take a lot more than that to replace the knowledge, poise, and experience those 2 have.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: But Can They Call The Game?

The possibilities seem to be there, alright.
But i keep thinking that an ILB is the Patriots' signal-caller.

Tedy and Junior do that ...
but then leave exploitable holes due to aging athlete syndrome.

I'd love to have the fast, quick, young guys in there.
But can they call the game from behind the plate?

I think you are overrating that responsiblity.
Actually Adalius Thomas called the plays last year, because BB felt it was a good way for him ot learn the defenses faster.
There arent players who have the responsiblity of calling out adjustments pre-snap, everyone does it. The 'signal-caller' is just the guy who takes the signal from the sidelines and calls the play in the huddle. Anyone can do it. I've seen a lot of teams use safeties to do that, and the explanation I got once was that it was because the safety is the least likely guy to be sucking wind in the huddle and needing to rest with his hands on his knees

 

[Tunescribe]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

You guys all seem to be pretty high on Hobson.He may work out for ya,Dunno.
Was never too overly impressed with him as a Jet.He sat on the FA bench for quite awhile so I guess other teams werent sold on him either.He had his moments but overall hes pretty darn average.*

* = the result of average coaching. He'll improve significantly under BB and Peas.

 

[K-Ro 25]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

To chip in on the big vic comments. I liked Hobson, not shedding a tear that he left but he was damn solid in 06 but last year looked terrible at times. The whole talent around him argument is a little weak, if you use that argument then I guess Rhodes and Harris are automatically phenomenal b/c they played great around that same lack of talent. Hobson is a guy who is a reliable tackler, a little under average speed, a liability in pass coverage and good against the run. I think he is a good rotational guy but if your looking for him to start or be James Farrior pt. 2 I think your putting too much pressure on him. He is a nice signing but Hobson will never be a reason why someone's LB's are labeled dominant and I think there isn't necesarily anything wrong with that.

 

[K-Ro 25]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

* = the result of average coaching. He'll improve significantly under BB and Peas.

So what are your expectations of him for the upcoming season?

 

[Tunescribe]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

So what are your expectations of him for the upcoming season?

I expect him to play a significant, reliable role in the inside linebacker rotation.

 

[K-Ro 25]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

I expect him to play a significant, reliable role in the inside linebacker rotation.

I dont think it will take BB or Peas to get that out of him, thats honestly what I think he ultimately will be w/ less emphasis on significant

 

[RayClay]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

If Hobson is smart and disciplined, he might be a big force. We get a vet with decent athleticism (OLB with sacks) and we don't need a gazelle in our system.

I also agree unleashing A.D. on the outside might be like getting a new player.

Rookies are there to learn, but i love the athleticism of Mayo and have been lobbying for drafting an actual linebacker.

I wonder if Crable is more than a project? Seems less than strong enough to be a devastating rusher and questionable as a full time LB.

Of course if he's dominant in either area, we've got something.

 

[RayClay]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

I dont think it will take BB or Peas to get that out of him, thats honestly what I think he ultimately will be w/ less emphasis on significant

He'll hopefully be the transition guy so they can play him and mayo. I really fear Bru and Seau going down together, we've been lucky they've taken turns.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

He'll hopefully be the transition guy so they can play him and mayo. I really fear Bru and Seau going down together, we've been lucky they've taken turns.

My interpretation of the one-year contract for Hobson is that the FO has been burned before with DEs and OLBs (Beisel and Brown) not making the transition to 3-4 ILB. Unlike Chad Brown, he's relatively young for a Pats LB, unlike Beisel, he's already got the perfect size. Like you said, he had the speed and strength to start and succeed as an OLB, even if he wasn't spectacular, and he knows the 3-4.

It doesn't hurt that he can take snaps at OLB if the starters go down. People aren't talking about that, but I'm sure BB considers that a huge plus. Pretty scary that three out of four starting LBs can play any position.

If he plays to expectations, I suspect the plan is to extend him and have Mayo and Hobson be the ILB tandem for a few years. You don't need a superstar at every position.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

Pretty scary, too, that 3 out of 4 are over 30 and 2 out of 4 are, by LB standards, well over 30 and no one's getting any younger. If you bring back Seau and he's first off the bench as many expect, then make that 3 out of 5 as well over 30.

When the Pats won the Super Bowl in the 2004 season, Roman Phifer was 35 years old and Willie McGinest was 34 years old. Both played significant roles in that season and the prior Super Bowl season before that. Correct me if my math is off, but that would mean that Phifer was 34 and McGinest was 33 in the 2003 Super Bowl season. Other than Bruschi who has clearly lost a step, the age thing is not an issue especially since Vrabel had a career year last year.

Also, don't forget that the Pats won Super Bowls with other players starting in their 30s on great defenses like Ted Washington (34 at the time of the Super Bowl,), Anthony Pleasant (32 at the time of a starter in a Super Bowl and 36 as a back up), Otis Smith (36 at the time of a starter at a Super Bowl), Keith Traylor (34 at the time of the Super Bowl), Tyrone Poole (31 at the time of the Super Bowl), and Rodney Harrison (32 at the time as a starter at his second Super Bowl with the Pats). Many of these players played on the same team.

The Patriots' defense has been labelled too old for most of the Belichick era. Somehow they always seem to be one of the better or one of the best defenses in the league. The 2003 defense was arguably one of the best all time and 5 starters were over 30 years of age (McGinest, Washington, Phifer, Poole, and Harrison).

 

[Rob0729]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

Interesting points, but I wonder how come you guys seem to be the only ones who seem to have such success with so many old players, especially at a speed position like LB? (I agree that it's not much of a surprise for big guys like Teddy W. to stay in the League and play well up until 35 or so.) Out of curiosity I just checked quickly the AFC starters at LB for all the other teams and no one else is even close to the general age of your LB corps, and especially your starters (including here Seau as your main backup rotating in alot, which is likely). Is it the training techniques that the Pats use that means their LBs seem to be able to generally play effectively 3-4 years longer than everyone else's (or perhaps Rodney's Dr. does indeed make housecalls)?

Who cares what every other team in the AFC does? Why would a cover-2 defense like the Colts want older LBs when their defense relies far more on speed than the Pats' 3-4? Even the Chargers' and Steelers' 3-4 relies far more on speed than read and react ability like the Pats' system does. The only defenses that are like the Patriots are the Jets and Browns and Willie McGinest is starting in one of those defenses two years after leaving the Patriots.

The Pats have success with older players because the Pats' defense doesn't rely on speed, but smart play and everyone doing their job. Older more experienced players seem to fit in well with the Patriots' system. A system like Dungy's Tampa 2 relies on players running around a lot with a lot of freelancing. That is better suited for younger players. It is all about the system.

 

[Deus Irae]

Interesting points, but I wonder how come you guys seem to be the only ones who seem to have such success with so many old players, especially at a speed position like LB? (I agree that it's not much of a surprise for big guys like Teddy W. to stay in the League and play well up until 35 or so.) Out of curiosity I just checked quickly the AFC starters at LB for all the other teams and no one else is even close to the general age of your LB corps, and especially your starters (including here Seau as your main backup rotating in alot, which is likely). Is it the training techniques that the Pats use that means their LBs seem to be able to generally play effectively 3-4 years longer than everyone else's (or perhaps Rodney's Dr. does indeed make housecalls)?

I too was stunned, stunned to see that only the Patriots have old players at the linebacker position. Until I took the 0.00000026 seconds required to think of a few prominent names such as

Keith Brooking - 32
Derrick Brooks - 35
Ray Lewis - 33

Seems other teams have players that are solid players into their 30's too. By the way, was Seau only about 14 when the Patriots signed him, or was he already old? Thomas was 30 years old before he ever played a game for the Patriots; or was that 20? How old was Pfifer when he signed a few years back? How about Chad Brown?

In other words, you're basically pointing to only 2 linebackers, Vrabel and Bruschi, and making your argument off of them. However, you feel free to ignore the obvious trend showing that Belichick has preferred to play experienced veterans at the linebacker position ever since becoming the Patriots coach, whether they reached their advanced age under the tutelage of the Patriots training techniques or those of other teams.

You're not even a good troll.

 

[signbabybrady]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

Pretty scary, too, that 3 out of 4 are over 30 and 2 out of 4 are, by LB standards, well over 30 and no one's getting any younger. If you bring back Seau and he's first off the bench as many expect, then make that 3 out of 5 as well over 30.

Interesting article I read recently (I won't link here since it would probably get me banned--you all wouldn't like it, trust me) honed in on how the fact that the Pats almost always played from well ahead meant your LBs didn't need to chase folks down in the running game and (a) expend a lot of energy doing so and (b) take the constant hits that come from a grind it out attack. In games you did, the author says, like the SB, the LBs looked old and slow. Haven't gone back and watched other games, but I have watched the SB enough to think he was right about that one. Will be interesting to see if other coaches noticed the same thing. Of course, not playing from way behind may not be something other teams can control if your O plays like last year's......

how many points did the old slow LBs give up in the superbowl?

How many LBs were on the field for the Giants last drive?

 

[RayClay]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

When the Pats won the Super Bowl in the 2004 season, Roman Phifer was 35 years old and Willie McGinest was 34 years old. Both played significant roles in that season and the prior Super Bowl season before that. Correct me if my math is off, but that would mean that Phifer was 34 and McGinest was 33 in the 2003 Super Bowl season. Other than Bruschi who has clearly lost a step, the age thing is not an issue especially since Vrabel had a career year last year.

Also, don't forget that the Pats won Super Bowls with other players starting in their 30s on great defenses like Ted Washington (34 at the time of the Super Bowl,), Anthony Pleasant (32 at the time of a starter in a Super Bowl and 36 as a back up), Otis Smith (36 at the time of a starter at a Super Bowl), Keith Traylor (34 at the time of the Super Bowl), Tyrone Poole (31 at the time of the Super Bowl), and Rodney Harrison (32 at the time as a starter at his second Super Bowl with the Pats). Many of these players played on the same team.

The Patriots' defense has been labelled too old for most of the Belichick era. Somehow they always seem to be one of the better or one of the best defenses in the league. The 2003 defense was arguably one of the best all time and 5 starters were over 30 years of age (McGinest, Washington, Phifer, Poole, and Harrison).

McGinest was playing the best football of his career. He had been injured in
his prime. Athletically he was fresh.

Anyone that tells me Bruschi is near the top of his game athletically, is crazy IMO. Also Roman Phifer had a dramatic decline as he approached the age Seau already is (Seau looks a lot more athletic than Bru, but over 40 linebackers are rare).

You can do anything with statisitics, but what counts is what you see with your eyeballs on the field. I saw a tired non-athletic LB corps at the end of the last two years. If you saw something else, that's fine.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: This LB Corp Could be Dominant!

Sure, some teams have one old guy in their LB corps--you forgot Donnie Edwards in KC who's 35, but no one has as many old guys as you do among the guys who start or play a lot (like Seau). If Seau comes back and plays the role he did last year of first guy off the bench or starter, 3 of your 5 main LBs are 33 or older and two are 35 and 39. Look around--you don't see anywhere near that anywhere else, at least not in the AFC (I got too lazy to do the whole NFL).

Lucky in player selection? Better training techniques? Better living through chemistry? Any of the three are possible. On the latter, additional circumstantial evidence includes (a) a fellow older player already being caught taking HGH (and caught only due to accident really, since the NFL doesn't test for HGH, meaning users can be free to use without fear of being caught, unless you're as dumb as Rodney and buy it in your own name online), (b) the gents in question all having melons the size of small moons---what do you know, as per some of my power lifter gym buddies a side effect of HGH called "the Bloat" causes head size to grow, (c) one of them had a stroke at age 32--how often does that occur to healthy young pro athletes? You make the call.....

Let's try this again, since you chose to deliberately ignore the obvious:

Most of the players were old before getting to New England. Seau, since you seem to focus on him, was 36 in Miami. Since most teams cut veterans when they feel they are making too much money for their age, a team that looks to pick up veterans can sometimes, shockingly, find some. However, given that New England tried to get Zach Thomas, you already knew of an example from just this season.

Look, I know that you're a troll, and that's fine with me. I just want you to be a better troll to help make the offseason pass in a more lively manner. Silly arguments like the one you're putting forth now aren't fun because they are too easily refuted.