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OT: Imus vs. TAFKAPacman


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No, there's no difference. Those who would act in the manner you hope for are just book burners taking another avenue. You pointed to Lenny Bruce but, sadly, you didn't learn the lesson that Lenny Bruce (and George Carlin later) should have taught you.

I didn't point to Lenny Bruce, and the comparison is so silly.

Lenny Bruce was convicted of a crime.

Don Imus is not up on charges.

Please, stop the inanity.

There's a world of difference between boycotting a sponsor and throwing someone in jail.

I'm having a hard time believing you think there's no difference between citizens refusing to buy something and the government putting you up on criminal charges.

NEWSFLASH: the ACLU defends the KKK, and it's not because they are upset that some citizens are refusing to buy products from the KKK's sponsors.
 
I didn't point to Lenny Bruce, and the comparison is so silly.

You're right. That was Pats726. I misread the post, and I apologize. The idea is still applicable, and you were responding to my response to Pats726, but the specific example was not yours. Again, my apologies.

There's a world of difference between boycotting a sponsor and throwing someone in jail.

I'm having a hard time believing you think there's no difference between citizens refusing to buy something and the government putting you up on criminal charges.

I'm having a hard time believing that you're incapable of grasping the difference between changing the radio dial and picketing the radio station. One is a sensible exercise of your discretion not to patronize something you don't agree with. The other is an attempt to silence someone you don't agree with.

NEWSFLASH: the ACLU defends the KKK, and it's not because they are upset that some citizens are refusing to buy products from the KKK's sponsors.

Newsflash: the ACLU is a socialist, anti-Christian organization with its own agenda that goes above and beyond defending perceived assaults on the First Amendment. It picks and chooses who it will defend based upon its broad political goals rather than based upon the simple notion of protection of the first amendment. That's within the organization's rights, but it pretty much kills your "KKK" argument.
 
I'm having a hard time believing that you're incapable of grasping the difference between changing the radio dial and picketing the radio station. One is a sensible exercise of your discretion not to patronize something you don't agree with. The other is an attempt to silence someone you don't agree with.
They're both my prerogatives under a free market. Now, if I were to use violence or threats of violence, that would cross the line, but a boycott is a wonderful way to put your money where your mouth is.
 
They're both my prerogatives under a free market. Now, if I were to use violence or threats of violence, that would cross the line, but a boycott is a wonderful way to put your money where your mouth is.

A boycott is an attempt to 'strong-arm' and coerce someone into doing what you want, and has been since the very first action of its kind. In this case, a boycott is an attempt to limit free speech. In other instances it's sometimes about wages, or hiring policies, or any number of other reasons. Calling it 'free speech' is just a way to give it cover rather than calling it the more accurate 'mob coercion attempt'.
 
You're right. That was Pats726. I misread the post, and I apologize. The idea is still applicable, and you were responding to my response to Pats726, but the specific example was not yours. Again, my apologies.

I'm having a hard time believing that you're incapable of grasping the difference between changing the radio dial and picketing the radio station. One is a sensible exercise of your discretion not to patronize something you don't agree with. The other is an attempt to silence someone you don't agree with.

It's not an attempt to silence at all. It's an attempt to show advertisers that you will not buy their crap if they support racists. It's as much an American right as anything. Has nothing to do with Constitutional rights. There is no constitutional rights to use the airwaves to make slurs against others. That's a privilege licensed by the American people. That's why people get into hot water with the FCC. Furthermore, racist statements are protected even though they have the effect of silencing people as well. For instance, if you live in an area with Klan activity, then any racist statements by the Klan can be perceived as silencing (ie it would be mighty brave of you to bring on any potential violence, so what do you do? You shut up). And yet the Klan's rights to effectively silence people are protected by the ACLU. Now, imagine the Klan had a radio station in that same area. If you tried to boycott the sponsors, you'd likely fail. But if they had a show in LA, the boycott would probably work. Proof positive that this isn't an issue of free speech. It's pure commerce.


Newsflash: the ACLU is a socialist, anti-Christian organization with its own agenda that goes above and beyond defending perceived assaults on the First Amendment. It picks and chooses who it will defend based upon its broad political goals rather than based upon the simple notion of protection of the first amendment. That's within the organization's rights, but it pretty much kills your "KKK" argument.

Blah blah blah, I'm not getting into a political argument on this site as you chose to.
 
A boycott is an attempt to 'strong-arm' and coerce someone into doing what you want, and has been since the very first action of its kind. In this case, a boycott is an attempt to limit free speech. In other instances it's sometimes about wages, or hiring policies, or any number of other reasons. Calling it 'free speech' is just a way to give it cover rather than calling it the more accurate 'mob coercion attempt'.

You're hopelessly confused on this since even the Supreme Court puts actions such as boycotts under Free Speech rights.
 
Well, I have never listened to Imus since the 70s, though I am well aware of his recent controversy. I think he's long been irrelevent as a radio commentator.

Yes, Imus needed to be more careful and his comments needed some clarification (hey, that's radio), but after we got that clarification, if there is still a controversey here, it's whether Imus' implying that Jones is getting picked on because he is black can be considered reverse racism.

As with the former Dodger GM's theory about black atheltic supremacy, and the comments a few years later by Jimmy the Greek, it always seems that those who are most offended are those in the PC establishment who can't handle what these people seemingly suggest.

The Dodger GM suggested blacks were superior athletes because it was bred into them by slaveowners. Well howdy-do, damn if anyone in the PC establishment enjoys being reminded about the historic legacy of American slavery. Whether his theory (which in my mind was not far-fetched when considered logically) was correct or not is not relevent; the real racism comes from the reaction of others.
 
You're hopelessly confused on this since even the Supreme Court puts actions such as boycotts under Free Speech rights.

I'm not confused at all. First of all, what the Supreme Court claims and what the Constitution actual means are frequently at odds (see Roe v. Wade as a prime example), so that argument is completely unpersuasive. Second, here's what I wrote earlier about the notion of a boycott:

When you use your freedom of speech to attempt to suppress the freedom of speech of others, you are simply laying the groundwork for any and all speech, including your own, to be limited by the same means.

Notice I said that it was a use of free speech in an attempt to suppress free speech? This time it's you who should have actually read posts more carefully.
 
I'm not confused at all. First of all, what the Supreme Court claims and what the Constitution actual means are frequently at odds (see Roe v. Wade as a prime example), so that argument is completely unpersuasive. Second, here's what I wrote earlier about the notion of a boycott:



Notice I said that it was a use of free speech in an attempt to suppress free speech? This time it's you who should have actually read posts more carefully.
So what? If the price I have to pay to boycott someone is that they may eventually boycott me, then so be it. I'm comfortable laying that groundwork. And of course it's "strong arming", in the sense that it puts pressure on someone to do something that they wouldn't have otherwise done, but why should that bother me?

You seem to think that my only recourse is to not listen. But I also have the recourse of communicating my displeasure to other people. That is what a boycott is.
 
So what? If the price I have to pay to boycott someone is that they may eventually boycott me, then so be it. I'm comfortable laying that groundwork. And of course it's "strong arming", in the sense that it puts pressure on someone to do something that they wouldn't have otherwise done, but why should that bother me?

You seem to think that my only recourse is to not listen. But I also have the recourse of communicating my displeasure to other people. That is what a boycott is.

Pujo telling his mother and some friends that he's pissed off at Kraft foods because the cheese product isn't actually cheese is not the same as Pujo organizing a boycott and demanding that Kraft stop manufacturing the cheese product and only manufacture pure cheese. Pretending that it is the same is simply a way of pretending that you're not taking the actions of a common thug.
 
Pujo telling his mother and some friends that he's pissed off at Kraft foods because the cheese product isn't actually cheese is not the same as Pujo organizing a boycott and demanding that Kraft stop manufacturing the cheese product and only manufacture pure cheese. Pretending that it is the same is simply a way of pretending that you're not taking the actions of a common thug.
I have every right to ask everyone I know not to buy a certain product, and I have no misgivings about it.

I have every right to ask everyone I know not to work for a certain company.

I have every right to ask everyone I know to take any legal action I'd like them to take.

As long as the underlying act is legal ("not buying a product" is legal), I have no problem with it. End of story.
 
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Please. The radio has two dials. One to change the station and one to turnoff the radio.

Did you mean to Quote Carlin? did you know you were Quoting him? I think it is great to bring that line into this debate because Carlin really had a way of simplifying it for you.

Carlin was the man and he will be missed
 
I have every right to ask everyone I know not to buy a certain product, and I have no misgivings about it.

I have every right to ask everyone I know not to work for a certain company.

I have every right to ask everyone I know to take any legal action I'd like them to take.

As long as the underlying act is legal ("not buying a product" is legal), I have no problem with it. End of story.

Your "right" is not in question. Your argument that it's a "right", therefore, was useless and had nothing to do with what I'd posted. End of story.
 
I'm not confused at all. First of all, what the Supreme Court claims and what the Constitution actual means are frequently at odds (see Roe v. Wade as a prime example), so that argument is completely unpersuasive.

The Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of Consitutionality in this country we call the United States of America.

Second, here's what I wrote earlier about the notion of a boycott:



Notice I said that it was a use of free speech in an attempt to suppress free speech? This time it's you who should have actually read posts more carefully.

If we're going to extend the definition of free speech and its suppression so wildly, then you're opening up arguments about how racist language actually suppresses the free speech of its racist victims by making racism common and normal. Do you really want to go there? I know I don't. That's why this idea that Imus's free speech rights being suppressed is complete poppyblank. Imus is free to say what he wants. Advertisers are free to disassociate themselves from him. That's called: America.
 
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Thread to be moved in 3...2...1...

Not fast enough!

Please. The radio has two dials. One to change the station and one to turnoff the radio. Unless you are tied up like the guy in Clock Work Orange I have no pity.

You find Imus insensitive/ Here's an idea - Don't listen to him. His ratings dry up and he gets fired.

(...)

Ooooh, mean white man said pacman is black!!! (Excuse me, African-American.)

Well, you know, Las Vegas has at least two nightclubs. If you find Pacman Jones offensive, you can always go to another...

Sorry to pile on.

But the general idea isn't that Imus knows whether Jones is black or not, that's a fact, its that Imus sensationalizes the idea of black crime by advancing the notion that its a logical extension that a law-breaker is black.

(I add the caveat I've only heard the truncated radio clip and don't have a good read on how Imus talks.)

I think that's what Imus is being called on. "There you go," like being African-American explains running afoul of the law. The majority of crimes in the US are still committed by whites, so its a misrepresentation of reality.
 
Well, I have never listened to Imus since the 70s, though I am well aware of his recent controversy. I think he's long been irrelevent as a radio commentator.

Yes, Imus needed to be more careful and his comments needed some clarification (hey, that's radio), but after we got that clarification, if there is still a controversey here, it's whether Imus' implying that Jones is getting picked on because he is black can be considered reverse racism.

As with the former Dodger GM's theory about black atheltic supremacy, and the comments a few years later by Jimmy the Greek, it always seems that those who are most offended are those in the PC establishment who can't handle what these people seemingly suggest.

The Dodger GM suggested blacks were superior athletes because it was bred into them by slaveowners. Well howdy-do, damn if anyone in the PC establishment enjoys being reminded about the historic legacy of American slavery. Whether his theory (which in my mind was not far-fetched when considered logically) was correct or not is not relevent; the real racism comes from the reaction of others.

I'm not going to address Campanis's dimwittedness from many years ago (he suggested blacks don't have the lung capacity for buoyancy) and I can't see why you'd defned it, but...

...I would point out that what you're arguing about Imus has been completely nullified by Imus himself this afternoon. First off, I can't understand what you mean by "reverse racism." If Imus was saying that Jones is being profiled, well then, that's straight racism. Not reverse.

But basically Imus admitted this afternoon that he knows who Pacman Jones is and in his own defense, Imus said he thinks Jones never did anything wrong that would warrant an arrest.

Does that sound like a preposterous defense to you? It does to me.

Again, people are saying don't jump on Imus on this thread, don't be PC. Yet Imus himself is...

1. Clearly running away from accusations of racism (i.e. he makes the case that his statement was misunderstood). Which means, even Imus recognizes that his statement may have been interpreted as racist.

2. In defending himself and his intent, he says that Jones never did anything wrong to warrant arrest.

#2 makes me think he is absolutely full of crap about #1.
 
Thats what I don't understand..Imus's nemesis Howard Stern insults and degrades midgets,Uses women as nothing but brainless sex objects and other disguisting things done to people with mental problems and people think he is wonderful,Imus says one wrong thing and he is under fire.

Its all about not exactly who you are but how popular you are
 
Not fast enough!



Well, you know, Las Vegas has at least two nightclubs. If you find Pacman Jones offensive, you can always go to another...

Sorry to pile on.

But the general idea isn't that Imus knows whether Jones is black or not, that's a fact, its that Imus sensationalizes the idea of black crime by advancing the notion that its a logical extension that a law-breaker is black.

(I add the caveat I've only heard the truncated radio clip and don't have a good read on how Imus talks.)

I think that's what Imus is being called on. "There you go," like being African-American explains running afoul of the law. The majority of crimes in the US are still committed by whites, so its a misrepresentation of reality.

The really odd thing about it is Imus claims Jones never did anything to warrant arrest, and that's why his arrests can be chalked up to racial profiling.
 
Thats what I don't understand..Imus's nemesis Howard Stern insults and degrades midgets,Uses women as nothing but brainless sex objects and other disguisting things done to people with mental problems and people think he is wonderful,Imus says one wrong thing and he is under fire.

Its all about not exactly who you are but how popular you are

Err, Stern has been kicked off more radio stations than Imus by a factor of 10.
 
If we're going to extend the definition of free speech and its suppression so wildly, then you're opening up arguments about how racist language actually suppresses the free speech of its racist victims by making racism common and normal. Do you really want to go there? I know I don't. That's why this idea that Imus's free speech rights being suppressed are complete poppy****. Imus is free to say what he wants. Advertisers are free to disassociate themselves from him. That's called: America.

You might want to re-think your post here. It makes no sense at all, since I didn't extend the definition of free speech. I was, in fact, wrongly accused of limiting it by Pujo.

As for the racist language argument, it's not my fault that you can't get a handle on what 'speech' is, where the right to it is anchored and why it's a bad thing for people to wield it as a bludgeoning weapon to suppress the free speech rights of others. Seriously, if you haven't seen enough of our rights being stripped from us in your lifetime to understand how this works, I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps when they come for you:

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
 
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