Why do we as fans have to defend our own team?

[Zeke_Mowatt]

I'm baffled - I'm relatively new here, and joined because it was a source of information in the barren wastelands of sports enthusiasm that is South Florida. I grew up in NH, rooting for underdog teams, and was here by the time the 'real' success started, but I honestly can't wrap my head around all the negativity surrounding what is probably #1, 2, or 3 on the list of all time most successful franchises (and imo, THE most given that we've had free agency and salary caps to deal with where others did not). How on earth can so many people think the most successful front office in maybe FOREVER is foolish and they as part time fans/students of the game (ha!) have all the answers? Sorry to rant, but I just can't comprehend this and it seems to be out in spades. I can at least appreciate some of the angst after the Superbowl - it was a disappointment, so it's natural to feel a bit let down and to question everything in your sadness, anger, and surprise. But this was the draft - the area where we have done great year after year, and found production year after year even in our later picks. We all have some occasional differing opinions, sure, and we all have our "binky" picks (thanks for introducing me to that term btw, I do love it), but again, where does all the arrogance come from that "we" know more than what HAS to be either 1, 2, or at worst 3 on the list of all time great front offices in the history of this league (and likely all sports, ever)? I wonder how all these people didn't honestly jump off bridges during the Pete Carroll years (I'm guessing most weren't AROUND during this time but still...) for all the venom I see regarding a franchise that has only missed the playoffs 1 time since 2001...and has won 3 superbowls, been to 4, and narrowly missed an additional after being up big in the afccg. Am I missing something? Do we secretly suck and I just don't see it? Have we secretly sucked for years and I missed the notice? Someone help me understand here.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's a message board, not a lemming parade. If every post was "Belioli is awesome", the board would have about 3 readers.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

It's a message board, not a lemming parade.

Sorry, that's an asinine thing to say. A message board is, ostensibly, a forum for an exchange of information, not a de facto justification for arguing moot points and questioning those who know more than you do. Just because you think you know more than everyone, and a message board gives you the opportunity to verbalize your misconception, does not inherently mean that a message board exists for that purpose.

And edited in response to your addition, just because trolls and argumentative people run up the post count (don't get me wrong, running it up can be good), does not make for better reading, nor does it attract more users. You and JoeSixPat spending 10 pages arguing the semantics of free agency verbiage does not attract users to the board, no matter how much you enjoy reading your own Bullsh*t.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sorry, that's an asinine thing to say. A message board is, ostensibly, a forum for an exchange of information, not a de facto justification for arguing moot points and questioning those who know more than you do. Just because you think you know more than everyone, and a message board gives you the opportunity to verbalize your misconception, does not inherently mean that a message board exists for that purpose.

And yet your post seems to show that it does. The reality is that in any large group, you will have a wide range of opinions and a variety of different personality types. Some people will be optimists and insist that every year is "the year" (see Jets fans for plenty of these), some will be pessimists who see doom around every corner (see Red Sox fans prior to the World Series victory). It's human nature, just as it was in your nature for you to make your attack personal for no reason.

No team is perfect, and not even the best are above critique and criticism.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

It's human nature, just as it was in your nature for you to make your attack personal for no reason.

No team is perfect, and not even the best are above critique and criticism.

LOL - Sorry but referencing something that you have done which is directly relevant to refuting your argument is hardly a "personal attack" but if I hit too close to home perhaps you should add some extra consideration into that fact. Human nature is not to inherently denigrate the team you are supposed to be a fan of, I'm sorry, this is flawed logic. Suggesting that, on a fan forum where the unifying factor is supposed to be a love of the team in question, differing opinions thusly justify negative attacks and general displeasure with the team we all supposedly love is flat out wrong (sorry for the run-on). While I can, as much as anyone, appreciate the idea that languishing in your success and resting on laurels is a recipe for mediocrity, there is a difference between potentially constructive criticism, and actively rooting for the downfall of the team by assuming every move they make to be wrong. There is also a difference between trusting in those who know more than you about a certain subject, and "lemmings" as you so eloquently and insightfully put it. For example, lemmings follow the lead lemming with no evidence that said lead lemming knows anything more than the rest of the pack. The flaw in your spectacular analogy is that we have leaders who have flat out proven themselves to be far from "lead lemmings" for lack of a better term, running us all over the ledge. You, on the other hand, and many others who are negative for the sake of negativity in many cases, are much closer to that lemming as you all love to jump on a bandwagon of criticism in the face of undeniable evidence that you are wrong and ignorant (in matters of professional football and running a team - please don't take that as a personal attack, I'd hate to hurt your feelings)

 

[Deus Irae]

LOL - Sorry but referencing something that you have done which is directly relevant to refuting your argument is hardly a "personal attack" but if I hit too close to home perhaps you should add some extra consideration into that fact. Human nature is not to inherently denigrate the team you are supposed to be a fan of, I'm sorry, this is flawed logic.... You, on the other hand, and many others who are negative for the sake of negativity in many cases, are much closer to that lemming as you all love to jump on a bandwagon of criticism in the face of undeniable evidence that you are wrong and ignorant (in matters of professional football and running a team - please don't take that as a personal attack, I'd hate to hurt your feelings)

You can make all the personal attacks you wish. I don't know you and they mean nothing to me as a result. However, let's not pretend that it wasn't a person attack. It was. Your opening 'rant' was simply ridiculous given the obvious shortcomings/lack of perfection of this front office. As for the question of "How on earth can so many people think the most successful front office in maybe FOREVER is foolish", let me refer you to spygate and the notion that a simple "Hey, Roger, is this legal?" could have spared everyone all the nonsense we saw this season. Clearly, this front office is quite capable of being as foolish as normal humans beings can be.

As for the 'negativity' angle about me, it's sheer nonsense, just like your original attack. Given that I've been accused of being a homer on numerous occasions, I'd say I'm coming down somewhere in the middle. In fact, here's a different current thread going on where I think it's pretty clear that I'm defending the team and praising the front office:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=81847

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

You can make all the personal attacks you wish. I don't know you and they mean nothing to me as a result. However, let's not pretend that it wasn't a person attack. It was. Your opening 'rant' was simply ridiculous given the obvious shortcomings of this front office. As for the question of "How on earth can so many people think the most successful front office in maybe FOREVER is foolish", let me refer you to spygate and the notion that a simple "Hey, Roger, is this legal?" could have spared everyone all the nonsense we saw this season. Clearly, this front office is quite capable of being as foolish as normal humans beings can be.

As for the 'negativity' angle about me, it's sheer nonsense, just like your original attack.

Comical. Since you've shown a penchant for arguing moot points for as long as I've been here, I won't beat this into the ground beyond this post, but you've completely deflected the original point. Your lemming point failed, now you want to rehash Spygate? You have nothing of substance to contribute so you cite nonsense and the 'nature' of people. You whimper that you've been personally attacked because you have no response to the actual point that was made. You feel you are "owed" something by the team, a common trait that I see in people like yourself (I hate to use the term haters, but dissatisfied malcontents is at least apropos) - you feel the front office should have "spared you" what? The "embarrassment" of spygate? Laughable! They don't owe you anything, and that's where you and I disagree completely. I am thankful for the enjoyment they've given me, you feel they owe you even more. I find that pathetic, sorry if that offends you.

 

[Deus Irae]

Comical. Since you've shown a penchant for arguing moot points for as long as I've been here, I won't beat this into the ground beyond this post, but you've completely deflected the original point. Your lemming point failed, now you want to rehash Spygate? You have nothing of substance to contribute so you cite nonsense and the 'nature' of people. You whimper that you've been personally attacked because you have no response to the actual point that was made. You feel you are "owed" something by the team, a common trait that I see in people like yourself (I hate to use the term haters, but dissatisfied malcontents is at least apropos) - you feel the front office should have "spared you" what? The "embarrassment" of spygate? Laughable! They don't owe you anything, and that's where you and I disagree completely. I am thankful for the enjoyment they've given me, you feel they owe you even more. I find that pathetic, sorry if that offends you.

My lemming point didn't fail. You were so off on it that I didn't bother pointing out the obvious. I didn't 'whimper' about being attacked, I noted it in the context of your post. And I don't think the team owes me a damned thing, just as I don't owe the team anything. However, being called a hater is amusing, so thanks. Go ask PatsFanInVa how much of a "Patriot Hater" I was being about the spygate issue.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

My lemming point didn't fail. You were so off on it that I didn't bother pointing out the obvious. I didn't 'whimper' about being attacked, I noted it in the context of your post. And I don't think the team owes me a damned thing, just as I don't owe the team anything. However, being called a hater is amusing, so thanks. Go ask PatsFanInVa how much of a "Patriot Hater" I was being about the spygate issue.

Do me a favor, point out the obvious for me. Just for fun. Thanks.

 

[Deus Irae]

Do me a favor, point out the obvious for me. Just for fun. Thanks.

Sure thing. My point about Lemmings was the idea about blindly following. You knew exactly what that point was. Rather than just deal with that with something innocuous like "I don't mean thoughtlessly following, but...", you went off on the "no evidence" tangent as if it meant something, when it was inapplicable in context.

I've been a fan of the team since the '70s, and this is the greatest era I've seen. It's not perfect, though (nothing on this world is), and there's nothing wrong with pointing out mistakes when they are made, or even pointing out perceived mistakes when they are thought to have been made.

 

[jeffbiologist]

Growing up under the shadow of the curse and in arguably one of the most intelligent cities breeds cynicism. Talk radio is the most popular station in town, and its all about fans calling in ranting on this and that about our sports teams. At a time where a newcomer will see the glass half full, we know the BB/TB glass is half empty and going fast. Apathy and gatorade will not be taken by all. Forums like this exist as an outlet for those of us not set with the status quo....losing super bowls, I am not happy,lol.
While we should try to get along more, there is no problem with differing opinions. In fact I dont mind playing devils advocate to bring an ugly topic to life....but thats just me. Its not that we are pretending to be smarter than the FO, the food tastes good most of the time, but if you saw how they make it would you still eat there??
There are alot of negative posts, too often they are extended because having an opinion is not the same as winning an arguement. Facts and rebuttals, did you ever take a debate class?? Making a convincing arguement on a board like this is difficult sometimes because everyone isnt on the same level, wavelength, or grade in school....You have a forty something like me who doesnt know how to use spellcheck next to a 15 yr old who cant remember Drew Bledsoe. It takes all types, find those you can have a civil arguement with, whose posts you enjoy reading for your own entertainment and leave the rest alone if you must, if you CAN,lol. I tell you, its better than the Bruins(out of the playoffs),Celts(lost tonite)or sox(why is baseball a sport??You cant HIT anyone).

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

Sure thing. My point about Lemmings was the idea about blindly following. You knew exactly what that point was. Rather than just deal with that with something innocuous like "I don't mean thoughtlessly following, but...", you went off on the "no evidence" tangent as if it meant something, when it was inapplicable in context.

Wait, I'm not sure exactly what point you are making here - you brought up lemmings, I countered that lemmings follow blindly and that there is no defined leader (hence the 'over the cliff' idea) but that those of us who would fall into your category of lemmings regarding the Pats are following leaders who have obviously proven themselves in virtually every venue. How is your analogy appropriate in that context?

 

[Deus Irae]

Wait, I'm not sure exactly what point you are making here - you brought up lemmings, I countered that lemmings follow blindly and that there is no defined leader (hence the 'over the cliff' idea) but that those of us who would fall into your category of lemmings regarding the Pats are following leaders who have obviously proven themselves in virtually every venue. How is your analogy appropriate in that context?

Because what the leader 'knows' doesn't matter in the analogy.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

Growing up under the shadow of the curse and in arguably one of the most intelligent cities breeds cynicism. Talk radio is the most popular station in town, and its all about fans calling in ranting on this and that about our sports teams. At a time where a newcomer will see the glass half full, we know the BB/TB glass is half empty and going fast. Apathy and gatorade will not be taken by all. Forums like this exist as an outlet for those of us not set with the status quo....losing super bowls, I am not happy,lol.
While we should try to get along more, there is no problem with differing opinions. In fact I dont mind playing devils advocate to bring an ugly topic to life....but thats just me. Its not that we are pretending to be smarter than the FO, the food tastes good most of the time, but if you saw how they make it would you still eat there??
There are alot of negative posts, too often they are extended because having an opinion is not the same as winning an arguement. Facts and rebuttals, did you ever take a debate class?? Making a convincing arguement on a board like this is difficult sometimes because everyone isnt on the same level, wavelength, or grade in school....You have a forty something like me who doesnt know how to use spellcheck next to a 15 yr old who cant remember Drew Bledsoe. It takes all types, find those you can have a civil arguement with, whose posts you enjoy reading for your own entertainment and leave the rest alone if you must, if you CAN,lol. I tell you, its better than the Bruins(out of the playoffs),Celts(lost tonite)or sox(why is baseball a sport??You cant HIT anyone).

I guess that's it though...I grew up with all of this, I lived up there until 2000, and it was only after I left that they had any relative success. I was watching the bears blowout, I saw buckner live on tv as it happened, I put a dinner plate sized hole in my wall on the kick return vs. Green Bay, so I feel the pain of times past, but I don't get what is almost hate in this modern era. I grant I'm lucky to avoid the talk radio up there, but the reality is, they have negative, shock-radio esque talk radio blowhards everywhere. I guess I still don't get those who have nothing but negative to say. Deus seems to think this translates into my lemming-esque following of the team, but my concern is for the across the board criticism that borders on loathing for the team; even having been there while we sucked, I never got this and maybe never will. I suspect, as I did say in a previous post in regards to Deus, that some of this stems from a feeling of being owed something from your local sports franchises. I got sucked into a bit of an argument with Deus that probably detracted from the overall point, which is ultimately my own fault, but I don't think that changes the fact that the mentality is that of an ingrateful fan-base that I just don't get. As for the Bruins and Celts (my god I wish they could talk to the Wizard and find some heart these past 2 games), I see your point, and in both those cases, I think there is more honest justification for b*tching - I can see being unhappy with mismanaged franchises as a fan, but I don't see where people think this is a mismanaged franchise. I guess that's more my point than anything...if we were Jets fans, Lions fans, even Bills fans, I could see being pissed off about how things went, but we are the absolute best out there for years upon years...you don't win every game, and you wish they would, but sheesh, c'mon, it's been pretty awesome and there really isn't any sign that it's getting worse other than the squawk of the chicken littles...

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

Because what the leader 'knows' doesn't matter in the analogy.

Of course it does...a lemming is known specifically for following another lemming that has no idea where it is going. Our coach and FO has PROVEN with 3 super bowls that it has every idea where it is going. While you may not always agree with their path, I think outside of being stubborn for the sake of argument, it is hard to say they don't know where it is, even if they don't always get there. That's a far cry from blindly leaping off a cliff..it's more like following the lead goose in the V back to the breeding ground than a lemming off the cliff.

 

[reflexblue]

It's a message board, not a lemming parade. If every post was "Belioli is awesome", the board would have about 3 readers.

I don't agree with that .From what I've seen if someone dares to even question what BB does their immediatly attacked. Just go back to Sunday,anytime someone suggests that we take a different player,or they don't understand whats going on their attacked like a piece of meat by a scoll of pierana.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of course it does...a lemming is known specifically for following another lemming that has no idea where it is going. Our coach and FO has PROVEN with 3 super bowls that it has every idea where it is going. While you may not always agree with their path, I think outside of being stubborn for the sake of argument, it is hard to say they don't know where it is, even if they don't always get there. That's a far cry from blindly leaping off a cliff..it's more like following the lead goose in the V back to the breeding ground than a lemming off the cliff.

No, sorry, but that's not correct.

 

[MosiT]

Geez, you people do nothing but fight and argue in this place. You really all need to chill out and try getting along with each other.

We are here for the same reason, albeit there are different opinions and views and that is what makes the world go around.

Fighting and arguing and name calling in every thread seems to be the rule of order.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

Lets all put it together for a change. We are all Patriot fans. Well, most of us.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

I don't agree with that .From what I've seen if someone dares to even question what BB does their immediatly attacked. Just go back to Sunday,anytime someone suggests that we take a different player,or they don't understand whats going on their attacked like a piece of meat by a scoll of pierana.

I disagree, there is a difference between "does anyone have any insight why we may have chosen Crable over Avril since both were on the board" (phrase that however you want, more or less harshly, the point is still the same) and "this draft is a failure, BB/Pioli is so bad at the draft it is pathetic, this is why we haven't won a superbowl since '04, what a waste"

That's my point...questioning a pick is one thing..."why did we make that pick", "that pick surprises me, I would have thought, based on all we read, heard, etc that we'd have gone this way" and so on. Those are questions with answers. But "We stink so bad at drafting on the 2nd day" (we don't even need to get into how wrong that statement itself is in point of practice over the past 5-6 years) is an entirely different entity. Questioning a call in game is one thing, questioning the ability of your OC and suggesting you could do better is another. I'm not lambasting everyone who has a differing opinion, I'm lambasting those who think theirs is the only opinion, no matter how ignorant or uninformed it might be, and no matter how many people who know more might try to help them understand.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't agree with that .From what I've seen if someone dares to even question what BB does their immediatly attacked. Just go back to Sunday,anytime someone suggests that we take a different player,or they don't understand whats going on their attacked like a piece of meat by a scoll of pierana.

That's very true, and I'm not denying that at all. My point in the post you quoted was that you need dissent on a sports message board or it quickly becomes boring. I'd say that you and I are in agreement on this issue.