The Greatest Threat To The Patriots Season

[BradyManny]

I'm all for drafting a tackle with the pick. It's a rarity for this team to be drafting this high, and it's a year with a couple of potential top notch pass protecting left tackles, an increasingly rare type of player. That being said, let's not go drafting for the O-line under false pretenses:


1.) Light is one of the best in the game at LT right now. He's not an elite type of LT, but there aren't many of them around right now. He's the kind of guy you always see at the top of the "The best of the rest" lists.

2.) Mankins is probably the best LG in the game, despite that ridiculous gas piping of the Super Bowl.

3.) Koppen is more than up to the task at center.

4.) Neal is arguably this team's best run blocker and, I think inarguably, its best pulling lineman.

5.) Kaczur has done a solid, though not spectacular, job at RT.

The line was awful during the Super Bowl. Significantly, given the OP's discussion about Neal, the line didn't collapse until Neal went down with an injury. However, until then, it had helped get the team to 18-0 and move the ball in the Super Bowl. People really need to stop letting 3/4 of one game dictate their way of thinking.

I agree with the vast majority of this, but I do think both Neal and Kaczur fall into the "adequate but upgradeable" category. ESPN had a good article recently - I know, rare - by the guy from Football Outsiders. Bottom line was:

Brady got hit a lot last season, and his ability to get rid of the ball quickly spared this line from giving up a lot more sacks. When you factor in the number of times we passed the ball last season, this line was 11th in the league in pass protection. Sounds about right to me. But then, think about what this line would be without Brady or Moss?

The two prior seasons, they've struggled and faced injuries at times. Sure, there are a number of prospects available in the mid rounds we could add to the mix, but I wouldn't mind if we drafted an LT at 7, or if we used a 2nd rounder on Duane Brown, a guy who seems like an athletic tackle who could be a fit for us. All of my thinking is Super Bowl aside. I've been saying the last few years that this line has gone from underrated to mildly overrated b/c of Brady and how good he is.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maybe you missed the Pats-Gints regular season game, but Brady was seriously pressured there as well. That's why in addition to the O-line's debacle (at least they were consistently bad against the Giants) I'd add the OL coaching staff's (Dante) inadequate SB prep to the D's again last game pathetic last stand as some of the myriad reasons we pulled the great choke.

I didn't miss the game. Go back and check the defense used by the Giants in that game and the amount of points scored by the Patriots.

 

[jeffbiologist]

Please indicate Albert's experience at LG and why you think he could be an all-pro on the left side of the line. And why do you think Mankins would succeed at RT. Not of this makes any sense at all to me. If we need a RT, let's draft Otah.

We like drafting guys who can play more than one position as we all know. Mankins was pretty much the same when he came out,though not as highly rated. Albert may be the highest rated G coming out in the last 10 years(Hutchinson the possible exception), and his value increases because of his athleticism, youth, speed and intelligence and the possibility he can make the switch to T. I can see a summer where we try several different starting OLs. If Mankins has the ability to play RT at all.....then like I said, we would be improving 2(!!) positions by drafting one guy.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree with the vast majority of this, but I do think both Neal and Kaczur fall into the "adequate but upgradeable" category. ESPN had a good article recently - I know, rare - by the guy from Football Outsiders. Bottom line was:

Brady got hit a lot last season, and his ability to get rid of the ball quickly spared this line from giving up a lot more sacks. When you factor in the number of times we passed the ball last season, this line was 11th in the league in pass protection. Sounds about right to me. But then, think about what this line would be without Brady or Moss?

The two prior seasons, they've struggled and faced injuries at times. Sure, there are a number of prospects available in the mid rounds we could add to the mix, but I wouldn't mind if we drafted an LT at 7, or if we used a 2nd rounder on Duane Brown, a guy who seems like an athletic tackle who could be a fit for us. All of my thinking is Super Bowl aside. I've been saying the last few years that this line has gone from underrated to mildly overrated b/c of Brady and how good he is.

I don't recall who I was 'talking' to about this earlier this year, but one thing that a lot of people overlook about the Patriots' line is the number of times it's left alone for passing. When the team has the receivers, it uses a lot of 4 receiver, 1 rb sets which mean that both the left and right tackles are filling much the same roles for a fair amount of the game. It's why I think that O'Callaghan looked better 2 years ago under the more reserved offense which featured a lot more Ben Watson than last year, after the change in the offensive system to the Randy Moss show.

When I break down what I see, I come to the conclusion that this team doesn't really need a mauler at the RT spot, it needs a second pass blocking tackle. Leave the power run blocking to Mankins and Neal, who both seem to love doing it. Heck, the team's using a zone blocking system anyway, so maulers on the outside aren't quite as necessary.

 

[VJCPatriot]

When I break down what I see, I come to the conclusion that this team doesn't really need a mauler at the RT spot, it needs a second pass blocking tackle. Leave the power run blocking to Mankins and Neal, who both seem to love doing it. Heck, the team's using a zone blocking system anyway, so maulers on the outside aren't quite as necessary.

Agreed, any offensive lineman that the Patriots draft should be a Superior pass blocker. Not just above average, Superior. He needs to be able to eat up the Strahans and Umenyioras of the world, or at least hold em off for 3 solid seconds so Brady can find an open receiver.

I don't like the idea of moving Mankins out of the guard position at all. He's doing a solid job where he is, trying to force him out of position could have a negative effect and just end up causing another vulnerability in the line.

 

[BradyManny]

I don't recall who I was 'talking' to about this earlier this year, but one thing that a lot of people overlook about the Patriots' line is the number of times it's left alone for passing. When the team has the receivers, it uses a lot of 4 receiver, 1 rb sets which mean that both the left and right tackles are filling much the same roles for a fair amount of the game. It's why I think that O'Callaghan looked better 2 years ago under the more reserved offense which featured a lot more Ben Watson than last year, after the change in the offensive system to the Randy Moss show.

When I break down what I see, I come to the conclusion that this team doesn't really need a mauler at the RT spot, it needs a second pass blocking tackle. Leave the power run blocking to Mankins and Neal, who both seem to love doing it. Heck, the team's using a zone blocking system anyway, so maulers on the outside aren't quite as necessary.

I think your analysis of the right v left tackle is spot on. But IMO, that's why we can take an athletic guy like Clady or Duane Brown on Day 1 and stick them at right tackle for the time being, since we're not looking to put a mauler at RT.

As for the OLine being left alone, that's a good point, but on the flipside, a lot of teams felt the best way to beat the Pats was to drop more into coverage and hope for the best (how'd that work, Jax?). Even the Giants didn't particularly blitz much, but happened to be the one team that got disrupting enough pressure to really effect the offense. My point is, while its a good point that the OL didn't use TEs to pass block much season to help out its OL, its also notable that this OL has the fortune of protecting the best QB in the league, with a dangerous corps of receivers, which has an affect on the way teams play them.

The team's only vulnerability right now is to the rare team - Giants on their most fortunate day ever - that can get pressure with just 4. IMO, there are a few Day 1 guys who could erase that vulnerability, and if they have the chance to do that, and still address CB & LB - which I think is possible, then they should go for it.

 

[LuthierJr]

we could probably trade down to 10-20ish and still get a top tier OT, as well as more picks to be used later in return.

I was talking about this at work today with a guy (bears fan) and he thought if our line would have been able to hold up the the GMens rush we would have, for sure, put up more than 14 and won the SB.

 

[Kontradiction]

What is most likely to keep us from the AFC Championsip Game?

NOT DRAFTING A TOP LINEBACKER? NAAAH!
We have Vrabel, Thomas and Woods outside. Woods is as good as Banta-Cain was.
We have Bruschi, Thomas and Alexander and will re-sign Seau or another vet.
We'll get more help, but not getting it isn't critical. Besides, rookie linebackers take time to develop.

NOT DRAFTING A TOP CORNER? NAAAH?
We can draft corners in second, third or even the fourth round.
We have Hobbs, Bryant, and Richardson with Webster and Sanders fighting for time. We'll get help in the draft, but it doesn't need to be early. I would secure another VETERAN like Shepherd or Law, but a top draftee isn't critical.

NOT PROTECTING BRADY BETTER? YUPPP!!!!
We didn't think a guard was a top need when we drafted Mankins. We were wrong!!! Having a stud left guard, who hasn't played one snap at tackle in the regular season, was well worth a first rounder.

Is gettin Brady better protection on the right side worth a first rounder, a #7? Would that be reaching? The real question is whether we have the need and who the best players are to meet the need. The players must come from the draft. The need, if any, is on the right side.

Personally, I am NOT a fan of Neal. I think that Albert would be a major upgrade and would make Kaycur or O'Callahan better. However, if the problem is really at RT, I wouldn't draft Albert unless he is ready to start and be a probowl potential RT (I think not). If the problem is at RT, then draft Otah or another RT. The pros is not where we train guards to play tackle. The reverse happens all the time. College tackles can indeed become pro guards rather easily.

Clady at #7 or #8 may be too much too pass up.

Doesn't it go: offense wins games, defense wins championships? If we took an OL, I wouldn't be disappointed. However, I think the better path back to the SB is to get younger on defense so we're not so exposed over the middle. Your argument does have it's advantages though.