a LB and two CB's by Pick 69

[mgteich]

I think that I understand long-term needs, and generally agree with your comments.

Let's look to 2009. We have Hobbs and a 6th rounder who might make the team. Let's look to 2010. We have the same binky and no one else.

To me, CB is both a short term and a long term need. At corner this year, we are where we were at WR last year. This is the draft to address the corner position. The players are there and there is no better use of 2nd through 4th round draft choices. To my mind, we need to draft three players to expect to get two solid contributers.

If by short tem, you mean starting or contributing big time this year, then we really don't have ANY short term needs once we re-sign Seau and sign another jag CB to compete with what we have.

I agree with draftng a "planet" player at #7. If we are indifferent among Gholston, Long and Ellis, then we can wait until #7. Otherwise we need to move up to get our choice.

I do not agree with looking for a top LT that would be needed in 2010 in case Light holds out. Unless the prospect plays RT, he'd be a waste to me. I certainly see the need for a RT/RG, but the problem is that I don't see that most available after the first round would beat out Kaycur and O'Callahan (two recent middle round draftees). I just don't see us drafting Otoh (sp?) or Clady.

Obviouly, we will draft the requisite two late round OL's looking for a gem. Lately they haven't even made the practice squad. As we've seen, such a player is unlikely to beat out Hochstein, Yates or Britt.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't share as much confidence in Light that you seem to. It has been noted for years that Light can be overmatched by the more athletic/quick defensive ends in the league. If we draft an LT at #7 he would be drafted to start at that position, moving Light over to RT where his limited athleticism is less of a factor. And I'm not sure I agree that a 250 lb linebacker qualifies under the "planet" rule either. Because BB has been reluctant to draft them in the past, I don't think they fit into his definition of the rare 300 lb+ "planet" player. I do think that there are actually a couple of outside linebackers talented enough to be finally be considered in the first round by the Pats this year, but I don't label them as "planet" players in my mind.

I agree with draftng a "planet" player at #7. If we are indifferent among Gholston, Long and Ellis, then we can wait until #7. Otherwise we need to move up to get our choice.

I do not agree with looking for a top LT that would be needed in 2010 in case Light holds out. Unless the prospect plays RT, he'd be a waste to me. I certainly see the need for a RT/RG, but the problem is that I don't see that most available after the first round would beat out Kaycur and O'Callahan (two recent middle round draftees). I just don't see us drafting Otoh (sp?) or Clady.

Obviouly, we will draft the requisite two late round OL's looking for a gem. Lately they haven't even made the practice squad. As we've seen, such a player is unlikely to beat out Hochstein, Yates or Britt.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I don't care what people say about weight. Jake Long is no *****, but he sure is Gholston's. Gholston didn't do anything fancy to beat Long, he simply beat him straight up. And he won, easily. It looked like some poor bastard playing D 3 trying to block a D1 pass rusher. Gholston isn't a sure thing, hell no rookie really is. That said, he damn sure is worth a shot which is what the draft is all about. I understand CB fills long term needs, which it will be done in the draft I think. However, IF they were to draft Gholston consider this.

Suddenly, this old LB core that sucks turns to this. Gholston on the outside, Vrabel who is in the prime of his career, can do it all moves into ILB. This fixes the need and both spots. The next spot in the ILB rotation is Hobson with Bruschi coming off the bench, then you have Adalius Thomas coming off the edge. If that isn't the best possibly 3-4 allignment I dunno what is.

IMO, I think they're going to grab multiples corners, but I wouldn't be surprised if they called up Carlson, a TE from ND. He knows the system, and he's a decent blocker. I think he'd be a solid late round pick for the Pats.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I don't share as much confidence in Light that you seem to. It has been noted for years that Light can be overmatched by the more athletic/quick defensive ends in the league. If we draft an LT at #7 he would be drafted to start at that position, moving Light over to RT where his limited athleticism is less of a factor. And I'm not sure I agree that a 250 lb linebacker qualifies under the "planet" rule either. Because BB has been reluctant to draft them in the past, I don't think they fit into his definition of the rare 300 lb+ "planet" player. I do think that there are actually a couple of outside linebackers talented enough to be finally be considered in the first round by the Pats this year, but I don't label them as "planet" players in my mind.

The problem with doing that is it really doesn't help the team all that much, and you have to pay the kid a **** load. Better to do it with a position of need.

 

[BRiZ]

I don't care what people say about weight. Jake Long is no *****, but he sure is Gholston's. Gholston didn't do anything fancy to beat Long, he simply beat him straight up. And he won, easily. It looked like some poor bastard playing D 3 trying to block a D1 pass rusher. Gholston isn't a sure thing, hell no rookie really is. That said, he damn sure is worth a shot which is what the draft is all about. I understand CB fills long term needs, which it will be done in the draft I think. However, IF they were to draft Gholston consider this.

Suddenly, this old LB core that sucks turns to this. Gholston on the outside, Vrabel who is in the prime of his career, can do it all moves into ILB. This fixes the need and both spots. The next spot in the ILB rotation is Hobson with Bruschi coming off the bench, then you have Adalius Thomas coming off the edge. If that isn't the best possibly 3-4 allignment I dunno what is.

IMO, I think they're going to grab multiples corners, but I wouldn't be surprised if they called up Carlson, a TE from ND. He knows the system, and he's a decent blocker. I think he'd be a solid late round pick for the Pats.

Gholston was also playing DE and strickly rushing the passer, in our system as an OLB he will have to drop into coverage and do a variety of things. Gholston is not a superior athlete and this is his major flaw. You ask him to drop into coverage and be athletic and you are in for a surprise, hes not as good as you think. If we were to just line him up at end or olb and tell him to rush the QB every snap, fine he would be a great player, but that isnt gunna happen. I think in a 4-3 or strickly pass rushing scheme he would be a good player, as an outside linebacker in our 3-4 with coverage resposibilities i dont think he would be a good player. The pats are gunna draft a good football player and Gholston has issues, they are not going to be high on him watch. Infact i bet they would take Keith Rivers over him and that isnt the spot he should be going either.

There are better football players in this draft than Gholston, i would only take Gholston if they were all off the board.

 

[rookBoston]

We can easily fit two rookie CBs on this roster, even with the free agents. Our hit rate with FA CBs is less than 50%, and I dont expect more than one or maybe two of Bryant, Webster and Sanders to actually make the team.

How about this class, we trade down for 3 solid solid CBs, and land a run stopping ILB:

1/14 CB Mike Jenkins - USF
2/44 LB Curtis Lofton - Oklahoma
2/62 CB Antoine Cason - Arizona
3/69 WR Dexter Jackson - Appalachian
3/94 CB Jake Ikegwuonu - Wisconsin
4/129 TE Craig Stevens - Cal

 

[PonyExpress]

I think that I understand long-term needs, and generally agree with your comments.

Let's look to 2009. We have Hobbs and a 6th rounder who might make the team. Let's look to 2010. We have the same binky and no one else.

To me, CB is both a short term and a long term need. At corner this year, we are where we were at WR last year. This is the draft to address the corner position. The players are there and there is no better use of 2nd through 4th round draft choices. To my mind, we need to draft three players to expect to get two solid contributers.

If by short tem, you mean starting or contributing big time this year, then we really don't have ANY short term needs once we re-sign Seau and sign another jag CB to compete with what we have.

I agree with draftng a "planet" player at #7. If we are indifferent among Gholston, Long and Ellis, then we can wait until #7. Otherwise we need to move up to get our choice.

I do not agree with looking for a top LT that would be needed in 2010 in case Light holds out. Unless the prospect plays RT, he'd be a waste to me. I certainly see the need for a RT/RG, but the problem is that I don't see that most available after the first round would beat out Kaycur and O'Callahan (two recent middle round draftees). I just don't see us drafting Otoh (sp?) or Clady.

Obviouly, we will draft the requisite two late round OL's looking for a gem. Lately they haven't even made the practice squad. As we've seen, such a player is unlikely to beat out Hochstein, Yates or Britt.

I pretty much agree with everything you say except Clady. He could play RT year 1, move Kaczur to RG, and transition to LT when the need arises. I wasn't trying to imply that you or anyoine else didn't understand the Pats' "needs". I was just thinking it through for myself, although maybe I should do that on my own time. It would probably be better to call them "immediate needs" instead of "short term" needs.

I bet the Pats could probably get Lito Shepherd for their early 3rd rdr. The supposed depth of the cb class could make other teams reluctant to trade a 2nd rdr for Shepherd. Not sure if the Eagles would want to do business with us though after the battle over Moss.

 

[BRiZ]

We can easily fit two rookie CBs on this roster, even with the free agents. Our hit rate with FA CBs is less than 50%, and I dont expect more than one or maybe two of Bryant, Webster and Sanders to actually make the team.

How about this class, we trade down for 3 solid solid CBs, and land a run stopping ILB:

1/14 CB Mike Jenkins - USF
2/44 LB Curtis Lofton - Oklahoma
2/62 CB Antoine Cason - Arizona
3/69 WR Dexter Jackson - Appalachian
3/94 CB Jake Ikegwuonu - Wisconsin
4/129 TE Craig Stevens - Cal

Deffinitly like Jenkins, #2 CB next to Cromartie so if Cro was gone he would be good.

Lofton or Mayo, either one would be good imo.

Cason would be amazing there but i doubt he lasts to that spot.

Dex is a lock.

Could probably get Ikegwuonu alot lower, hes injury and has other issues.

 

[NePatriots]

I think we can get two great corners in Round 2, one at 62, one with a package of 69/94. (Cason, Godfrey, Flowers would be my faves) With the #7 we need to draft a biggun such as Rivers, Clady, Albert. I still think the best choice is to trade down into the teens and take Rivers/Mayo.

 

[tombonneau]

Based on the players they've been bringing in to visit, I'd say it certainly looks like it will be some combo of LB & CB with at least the first two picks, possibly 3 of the first 4. This is very encouraging.

However, I'm still not ruling out OL at #7 if they can't move the pick. Would not surprise me to see them grab one of the top guys to upgrade RT.

The only non-defensive player I'd really like to see them take in the first 3 rounds is Dexter Jackson in the 3rd. Would love that pick a lot.

 

[sebman2112]

Your planet players are generally the 305-330lbs DE's and NT's on defense, and OT's and OG's on offense, especially if the player still has good mobility at that size.

Maybe you could qualify a big TE (6'6" 275lbs), and really big LB's (6'4" 275lbs) under that category, but it's a slight reach, and I wouldn't qualify the 6'3" 260lbs LB's of the world under that category.

I said this in a thread sometime back (might have been a month ago), but I think the Patriots might take one of the big boys, if they stay in the top 10. That could either be Ellis or Dorsey on defense, Jake Long, Albert, or Clady on offense. Really, they have always valued drafting from the lines out, and if you can stock one of your lines with a future All-Pro, then it's generally a very good idea.

 

[PonyExpress]

Your planet players are generally the 305-330lbs DE's and NT's on defense, and OT's and OG's on offense, especially if the player still has good mobility at that size.

Maybe you could qualify a big TE (6'6" 275lbs), and really big LB's (6'4" 275lbs) under that category, but it's a slight reach, and I wouldn't qualify the 6'3" 260lbs LB's of the world under that category.

I said this in a thread sometime back (might have been a month ago), but I think the Patriots might take one of the big boys, if they stay in the top 10. That could either be Ellis or Dorsey on defense, Jake Long, Albert, or Clady on offense. Really, they have always valued drafting from the lines out, and if you can stock one of your lines with a future All-Pro, then it's generally a very good idea.

I think TEs and 3-4 OLBs qualify in that category, because of the size speed combo. But it's not really what I think that matters.

 

[mgteich]

If Clady can project to be a starting RT this year, then for me he is certainly in the mix as a blue-chipper, and virtually guarantees us one of the blue-chippers (J. Long, Dorsey, Gholston, C. Long, Ellis or Clady). This only presumes that either Ryan or McFadden are drafted in the top 7. If both are in the top 7, we get at least two of the blue-chipper list.

BTW, I don't know how well Kaycur would do as a road-grader RG. But he'd be fine as the Game Day backup at both tackle positions.

I don't think that the issue with Shepherd is whether we would need to give up a 2nd or a 3rd, or the depth of the draft at corner. The issue is what he wants for a contract, and whether we believe that he'd play out the contract or just ask for more if he does well.

I pretty much agree with everything you say except Clady. He could play RT year 1, move Kaczur to RG, and transition to LT when the need arises. I wasn't trying to imply that you or anyoine else didn't understand the Pats' "needs". I was just thinking it through for myself, although maybe I should do that on my own time. It would probably be better to call them "immediate needs" instead of "short term" needs.

I bet the Pats could probably get Lito Shepherd for their early 3rd rdr. The supposed depth of the cb class could make other teams reluctant to trade a 2nd rdr for Shepherd. Not sure if the Eagles would want to do business with us though after the battle over Moss.

 

[BradyManny]

If Clady can project to be a starting RT this year, then for me he is certainly in the mix as a blue-chipper, and virtually guarantees us one of the blue-chippers (J. Long, Dorsey, Gholston, C. Long, Ellis or Clady). This only presumes that either Ryan or McFadden are drafted in the top 7. If both are in the top 7, we get at least two of the blue-chipper list.

BTW, I don't know how well Kaycur would do as a road-grader RG. But he'd be fine as the Game Day backup at both tackle positions.

I was very surprised to see Kazcur viewed so highly by Scouts Inc, I don't have the actual grade, but they had him as worthy of a 2005 1st round pick in the Scout Inc "re-draft" thing as mentioned per Reiss. Obviously, it's just one opinion, but I view him as an upgradeable part.

And I think RT v. LT, as another poster pointed out rather well in another thread, isn't as important a distinction for the Pats. We're so pass-heavy and so often line up the TE on the left, that our RT better be capable of handling edge rushers in space.

I'm starting to like Duane Brown the more I hear about him. An athletic OT we can hopefully get with the early round 3 pick, wouldn't have Clady's upside, but might fit the bill. I don't know too much about him, but have scoured looking for more opinions on him, sounds like a Pats fit.

 

[captain stone]

Terrific thread, folks. Excellent points/counterpoints made, and I find myself in general agreement on at least some of those points made by each one of you.

My ideal scenario for the first 3 rounds is that we trade down into the teens and receive another 2nd-round pick. I don't like the possibility of not having any draft choices between #s 7 and 62. That's just too much talent to watch pass by you. With our first pick, we should then take the best available Pass Rusher. With our second pick, we should take the best available CB. With #s 62, 69 and 94, we should take 3 of the best available at CB, OLB, ILB, FS, RS and OL, as long as one of those 3 is another CB. Our 4th- through 6th-round choices should be spent on the above position groups not drafted already; and our 7th-rounder can be used for the best available (blocking) TE, just to make Bill and Scott extra happy.