Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal" [merged]

[Bobs My Uncle]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

Something I've always been curious about, just wondering if someone has the basis for why penalties are sometimes "half the distance to the goal".

For example, if a team is at the opponents 8 yard line and the defense commits a 5 yard offsides penalty, the ball would get moved to the 3. However, if a defender decided to take a swipe at a QBs head at that same 8 yard line, it only ends up as a 4 yard penalty even though the infraction is much worse.

Seems to me that the ball should be marked off as far as possible for the yardage of the penalty until it gets to the 1 yard line.

Any idea as to why it's not done that way?


Thanks.

I too think it's a silly rule.

Any penalty that doesn't allow to be penalized the full yardage amount should be placed at the 1 inch line.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

not true.....remember the half the distance on the illegal kick off.

Damn I cant remember the full details of the play...I just remember they enforced half the distance.......the more I think about this play even though I cant remember it accurately I don't think it apllies so maybe you are true.

Anyone else remember what I am talkin about?

Are you talking about the Baltimore game, two personal fouls after the TD, so the kickoff was not from the NE 35, or the 50, but from the Baltimore 35.

Gotkowski kicked it through the endzone to give them the ball at the 20, but there was debate not only should he have tried an onsides kick, but also if he kicked it out of bounds on purpose, where would it be spotted:

1) 25 yards from the line of scrimmage, the five yard line
2) half the distance (essentially half the 35 yards, so placed at the 17 1/2)
3) the point where the ball went out of bounds (seems to be no precedent for that)

I'm not sure that I ever heard the ruling on that. Would half the distance apply on a kickoff from the "other" 35?

 

[signbabybrady]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

Are you talking about the Baltimore game, two personal fouls after the TD, so the kickoff was not from the NE 35, or the 50, but from the Batimore 35.

Gotkowski kicked it through the endzone to give them the ball at the 20, but there was debate not only should he have tried an onsides kick, but also if he kicked it out of bounds on purpose, where would it be spotted:

1) 25 yards from the line of scrimmage, the five yard line
2) half the distance (essentially half the 25 yards, so placed at the 17 1/2) if it went out between the 17 1/2 and goal line other wise placed at the spot.3) the point where the ball went out of bounds (seems to be no precedent for that)

I'm not sure that I ever heard the ruling on that. Would half the distance apply on a kickoff from the "other" 35?

That is the play and If I remember correct yes half the distance would have appllied.

edit: i added to your post

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

That is the play and If I remember correct yes half the distance would have appllied.

edit: i added to your post

This is correct.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

Are you talking about the Baltimore game, two personal fouls after the TD, so the kickoff was not from the NE 35, or the 50, but from the Baltimore 35.

Actually, to be precise, it was two PFs plus an offsides on the XP attempt (15 + 15 + 5 = 35 yards).

Gotkowski kicked it through the endzone to give them the ball at the 20, but there was debate not only should he have tried an onsides kick, but also if he kicked it out of bounds on purpose, where would it be spotted:

1) 25 yards from the line of scrimmage, the five yard line
2) half the distance (essentially half the 35 yards, so placed at the 17 1/2)
3) the point where the ball went out of bounds (seems to be no precedent for that)

I'm not sure that I ever heard the ruling on that. Would half the distance apply on a kickoff from the "other" 35?

(1) should actually be 30 yards from the LOS. (3) actually is stated in the rulebook; teams in this situation have the choice of taking the ball 30 yards from the spot of the kick, or at the point where it goes OOB (or a rekick after a 5-yard penalty).

As far as (2) goes, Greg Aiello from the NFL said that the rule wouldn't apply, although Belichick thought it did. I guess we'll have to wait for it to actually happen to figure things out for sure.

 

[Calhoun44]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

I always wondered why they don't move the first down marker in addition to half the distance to the goal. For example, if the offense commits a holding penalty on the 16 yard line on first down and ten, then the ball gets moved back to the 8 yard line and the first down marker gets bumped forward to the 28 yd. line. That would still make it first down and twenty, but not put the ball too close to the endzone.

 

[pats1]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

2007 NFL Rulebook, Rule 14:

Section 2 Location of Foul
Article 1 If a distance penalty, enforced from a specific spot between the goal lines would place the ball more than half the distance to the offender’s goal line, the penalty shall be half the distance from that spot to their goal line.

Note: This general rule supersedes any other general or specific rule other than for a palpably unfair act or the enforcement for intentional grounding, if appropriate.

A.R. 14.28 Second-and-20 on B24. A legal forward pass is caught by end A1 on the B12 and he runs to the B10. B1 roughed the passer.

Ruling: Half the distance from the end of the run. A’s ball first-and-goal on B5.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Question on "Half the Distance to the Goal"

2007 NFL Rulebook, Rule 14:

That's true, but I'm not sure that an OOB KO counts as a "distance penalty." (Think of it this way: in normal cases, distance penalties "push the ball back," towards your end zone, from the spot of the foul. Here, the ball moves forward from the spot of the foul.) As I pointed out, someone asked Greg Aiello (an NFL rep), and he said that it didn't apply in this particular case.

 

[Snarf]

Half the distance to the goal...what stops cheating?

Let's say there is 50 seconds on the clock, and we don't want to give the ball away, and we are out of timeouts.

What stops our offense from purposefully getting penalty after penalty until there is no time left on the clock?

You could get your entire offensive line to simply stand there and hold, you could intentionally ground, false start... whatever... over and over again.

Your penalty effectively becomes nothing as you get "half the distance to the goal" over and over again.

Time expires, you win.

Am I missing some rule that prohibits such trickery?

I know that some penalties can be waved off by the defense to advance the down, but there are a bunch that are automatic by the referees. You could just ensure that your penalties are of that type.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

I'm not sure if there is or isn't a rule. I'd imagine, however, that whoever did that would get in pretty big trouble.

 

[pao]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Let's say there is 50 seconds on the clock, and we don't want to give the ball away, and we are out of timeouts.

What stops our offense from purposefully getting penalty after penalty until there is no time left on the clock?

You could get your entire offensive line to simply stand there and hold, you could intentionally ground, false start... whatever... over and over again.

Your penalty effectively becomes nothing as you get "half the distance to the goal" over and over again.

Time expires, you win.

Am I missing some rule that prohibits such trickery?

I know that some penalties can be waved off by the defense to advance the down, but there are a bunch that are automatic by the referees. You could just ensure that your penalties are of that type.

Teams could simply take the result of the play or, if it was successful, take the penalty- which stops the clock. If you intentionally ground, they decline, and you've lost a down and stopped the clock. False start is a dead ball foul and, if the clock isn't already stopped, stops the clock when called. No time is run.

sdfan

 

[Snarf]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

<< False start is a dead ball foul and, if the clock isn't already stopped, stops the clock when called. No time is run. >>

Are you totally sure about that? Often you see the clock start ticking down a second or two before a false start is called. The clock is never reset to what it was before the play was started.

 

[otis p. driftwood]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Ahhh...the time between the Super Bowl and the draft!

 

[signbabybrady]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Let's say there is 50 seconds on the clock, and we don't want to give the ball away, and we are out of timeouts.

What stops our offense from purposefully getting penalty after penalty until there is no time left on the clock?

You could get your entire offensive line to simply stand there and hold, you could intentionally ground, false start... whatever... over and over again.

Your penalty effectively becomes nothing as you get "half the distance to the goal" over and over again.

Time expires, you win.

Am I missing some rule that prohibits such trickery?

I know that some penalties can be waved off by the defense to advance the down, but there are a bunch that are automatic by the referees. You could just ensure that your penalties are of that type.

As other posters have pointed out there are provisions against that. Not easy to get the clock ticking and keep it ticking if you are always committing fouls. Maybe there is some weird loophole there though....All I can think of is that you would have to make the penalty on a play you get a first down on, than they wouldn't want to decline. So maybe offensive holding or offensive illegal use of hands. You call a play where you tell Your WR he needs to get wide open and it is ok to commit a penalty to do so because we would still waste clock.

Hut, WR throws defender down by face mask and is wide open for a first down, you complete the pass, Time is wasted, and they have to accept the penalty..... you could try to do this again and again until the clock is out. There are some huge problems with this though.....To risky as you have to throw and the other team will catch on. Maybe other problems to but just trying to throw out an idea.

 

[Snarf]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Besides, there are ways to get around teams denying a penalty. Just make sure that any penalty you create gives you a first down.

So, have your entire offensive line hold the entire defensive line, and let Maroney run for an easy 6 yards for a first down.

The opposing team HAS to accept the penalty in that case.

If you begin the drive near your own goal line, you only get set backwards INCHES, so creating penalty-filled plays that give you first downs is easy.

There just seems to be a massive loophole in the "half the distance to the goal" rule to me.

 

[blackglass3]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Ahhh...the time between the Super Bowl and the draft!

QFT. April 26th can't get here fast enough!

 

[hughthehand]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Any of these penalties are a safety when committed in the End zone. It may work once when they were not expecting it, after that its highly doubftul you could keep the "holds" outside of the goal line.

 

[DGameguy]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Another day, another rulebook question....aaaaaaaaaaaah the offseason!

It's been a while since i dusted off my official NFL rulebook, but I would imagine that if there is not a specific rule against this, it would fall under one of a few "blanket" or umbrella rules in the back of the book that cover "other" illegal practices used to restrict competition/alter the outcome of a game.

The examples traditionally given are if a player comes in from the sideline during a play to tackle a player with the ball in the open field, or throwing a cooler or bench or something for the same purpose. So I am not sure if it would fall under the rules.

The penalties given for said penalties are player/coach ejection and forfeiture of the game.

 

[Gwedd]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Well,

If I was inside of the 35 (my own), and really needed to take some time off the clock, and it was 4th down, I would give serious thought to a fake punt, where the punter took the ball, then ran back for a safety. You could probably milk 5-8, maybe even 10 seconds off the clock, then you get a free kick.

Otherwise, if we only needed a yard or two, I would also seriously consider letting the punter try and run it and get the couple of yards. It all depends upom how good I feel about my defense.

And yeah.... I hate this time between seasons.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Re: Half the distance to the goal... what stops cheating?

Any of these penalties are a safety when committed in the End zone. It may work once when they were not expecting it, after that its highly doubftul you could keep the "holds" outside of the goal line.

This is the answer. Do intentional grounding in the endzone, or hold in the endzone and it's 2 points for the other guys and you're kicking to them.

Regards,
Chris