Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts) [merged]

[PatsFanInVa]

Fellow Pats Fans,

Some of us are embarking on a project to pull together the known, source-able information the media are not regularly "getting" as the neverending spygate saga continues.

The purpose is to pull together facts, not conjecture, not "this must mean that" type of information. Just facts.

The goal is to generate a series of Fact Sheets for distribution to media outlets.

This will take a lot of legwork, but the beginning is here. Please provide what you know, with links or cites to a reliable source. Reliability and accuracy count here.

Please, all, don't bother to weigh in to tell us this will not work, or to explain what a waste of time it is, or to talk about how everybody should spend their time on Darfur or something. We're all here enough to demonstrate that this is actually what we care about, for better or (probably) worse. So rather than spinning our wheels, we want to take that same energy and focus it to an extent.

So: If you have links to the rulebook, the bylaws, the stories relating to the Jets or Dolphins' escapades, the quotes from Jimmy Johnson, or any other sourceable information, including quotes from significant figures, please reply here with the pertinent information.

Thanks very much in advance for your input into this project. We will make the board aware of progress as it becomes available.

PFnV

 

[upstater1]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

For me, this is a smoking gun article.

#1. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2696227

It came out after the memo sent to NFL teams. The NFL was ok with sign stealing off tape.

I'm not sure what Belichick was supposed to think about videotaping after hearing the Steve Alic quote. I think it's reasonable to believe he knew he was technically violating the rules, but that this particular rule was one that even the NFL ridiculed openly to the media.

The other thing that gets me is that stealing signals is absolutely fine. It's only videotaping that's illegal. Wha? Absurd.

In this linked interview with Costas, Goodell gives his reasoning:

#2. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20891188/

At one point he slips up and says that, "The Patriots weren't using hi-tech means [as though if they were, it would be ok] they were filming out in the open." Goodell as much as admits they punished the Patriots for PR reasons.

Finally, the Jets admitted taping:

#3.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/12/12/jets-taped-patriots-in-2006/

Funny, the Jets claimed they received permission. The Patriots said they didn't live permission. The NFL said it was legal since the Jets had permission. This tells me Matt Estrella screwed up. He should have claimed the Jets had given him permission.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Thanks Upstater. I remember the Jets "permission" claim and the Pats' subsequent "nuh-uh" response. Do you have that link? (The Pats response that no permission was granted?) PS, I remember reading it too... I'm not doubting it

PFnV

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

For me, this is a smoking gun article.

#1. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2696227

It came out after the memo sent to NFL teams. The NFL was ok with sign stealing off tape.

I'm not sure what Belichick was supposed to think about videotaping after hearing the Steve Alic quote. I think it's reasonable to believe he knew he was technically violating the rules, but that this particular rule was one that even the NFL ridiculed openly to the media.

The other thing that gets me is that stealing signals is absolutely fine. It's only videotaping that's illegal. Wha? Absurd.

In this linked interview with Costas, Goodell gives his reasoning:

#2. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20891188/

At one point he slips up and says that, "The Patriots weren't using hi-tech means [as though if they were, it would be ok] they were filming out in the open." Goodell as much as admits they punished the Patriots for PR reasons.

Finally, the Jets admitted taping:

#3.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/12/12/jets-taped-patriots-in-2006/

Funny, the Jets claimed they received permission. The Patriots said they didn't live permission. The NFL said it was legal since the Jets had permission. This tells me Matt Estrella screwed up. He should have claimed the Jets had given him permission.

Way to start things off with a slam dunk upstater!

:rocker:

My tact has been more historical - finding articles that document what most people consider "cheating" in the NFL was known as "gamesmanship" going back to 1955, as well as some more recent articles as well. I'll look up the links again and post them here.

This is my main claim to fame on facts... the Lee Grosscup "Spying In Pro Football" article that Profootballtalk.com's Florio (finally) gave some play too (apparently they guy needs to pace his news as I posted that here and sent it to him a week ago.

http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html

Still - thanks for posting it Florio!)

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

YES, BRING it, Joe6P!

 

[upstater1]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Two more:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22215958/

In this one, Mangini said it's common courtesy to grant permission to tape. In this instance, he was discourteous I guess. This puts a whole new spin on that liar Tannenbaum's claim that they had to turn the Patriots in to show the players they were doing everything possible to win. Now you know why the Jets lost so many other games. They were too courteous to other teams and, according to Tannenbaum, they let down their players.

Here's the one with the Patriots' denial.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3156206

Oh, and someone better track down Jimmy Johnson's quote accusing the Colts' Howard Mudd of being the dean of videotaping.

 

[ivanvamp]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Here's another one: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-historynflcheating&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

This one has the story of the Broncos taping the Chargers' practice, and the NFL actually saw the tapes of what the Broncos got. Yet no fine, no punishment, no investigation, nothing.

Then this one, which has the Jimmy Johnson stuff: http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/?p=2202&srvc=home&position=recent

Hope that helps!

 

[Hardboiled]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Some repetition. My Message to the Media Toolkit


I've tried slowly education people on common misconceptions hoping to reduce the hysteria surrounding the cameragate (no spygate).

I also end discussions with something about - in light of these items (Toolkit), the penalty seems out of place and I think Goodell knows that now.

It's not a cover-up, but a logical backtracking.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Harboiled, thanks once more for this. It's very much an inspiration for this form of the message. It may be less ambitious in going all the way to conclusions, but it's hoped that the more restrained goal will allow better exposure. Many of your same points are perfect for the "fact sheet" approach.

PFnV

 

[fgssand]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

1) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807E5DC163AF931A25753C1A96E958260

"Was or wasn't there a spy up high"??

Awesome 1998 article by Dave Anderson of the NY Times......


2) Shame on you Arlen.........

http://www.ohdave.net/2008/02/laissez-faire-republicans-unless-its.html


Laissez Faire Republicans (Unless it's football or baseball)


Arlen Specter is against investigating corporations like Enron.






3)

 

[Iron Helmet]

The Rule that Bill Broke

Still feel that the media has not gotten a handle on the actual "Crime", and many presume filming signals is illegal...but is it? The rule is really confusing, but I'll give it a shot...let me know if I am on the money:

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." They also say all video for coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

So, you can't video from these locations (booth, field, lockerroom), but YOU CAN VIDEO for coaching purposes, as long as you are enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead. My guess is that you could easily focus the camera (the one in the enclosed space) on the person calling the signals and be within the rules.

That was re-emphasized in a memo sent Sept. 6 to NFL head coaches and general managers. In it, Ray Anderson, the league's executive vice president of football operations wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

This re-emphasis simply tells me the same thing...don't record from the locations we have prohibited (booth, on the field, or in the locker room), and anywhere else you can have at the film during a game...BUT YOU CAN VIDEO for coaching purposes, as long as you are enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead. I am guessing being enclosed with a roof makes in game transmission of data harder (versus being in the coaches booth or on the field).

SO YES...YOU CAN VIDEO COACHES SIGNALS.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Don Banks of SI.com chimes in with this article from July of 2007 about how rampant "cheating" is in the league.

Playbooks disappearing, bringing in players of future opponents for free agent visits with the expressed purpose of gleaming information, stealing signs, all of this and more is cited by Banks. He gets his info from "anonymous" sources but if pressed by some sort of legal action, he'd have to give those sources up and a whole new can of worms would be opened.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

I don't have "insider" access to espn.com, however here is the show archives for Mike and Mike in the morning. On one of the pieces with Marcellus Wiley, Golic discusses exactly what happens during walk through's and why taping one would not do the Pats any good. There is another one, with either Ditka or Clayton where he discusses how rampant sign stealing is.

Link

Hopefully someone with insider access can find these and they can be added to your list of resources.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

From USA Today in the wake of the initial allegations.

Probably only this paragraph is worthy of your time, but if it helps...

Technology isn't the only culprit, however. I covered the NFL for the good part of a decade and listened to half-truths from coaches refusing to disclose players' injuries, watched teams stash players on injured reserve with fake ailments and heard stories of illegal workouts. Years earlier, the legendary George Allen used to order an employee to ride a bicycle in circles around Redskin Park, looking for spies in trees, especially during Dallas week.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Thanks, Bradford... I'm casting a broad net I guess. The worst thing that can happen is we have too many (and maybe a too broad collection) and some stuff ends up on the cutting room floor.

I know I have seen the discussions lately of "page 105 [?] of the rulebook". Might have the page wrong... but if anybody can lay hands on that reference and a link it will be fantastic. Anything else by the way is fair game - if it can be sourced we want it!

I hope this is going to result in basically a focused collection of "open source" stuff which anybody can find, but which isn't usually found in one place. Like any other professionals, reporters like tools that make their jobs easier... we aim to provide our friends in the fourth estate with some helpful tools.

PFnV

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

God I love that Banks article from 7/07!

 

[richpats]

Re: The Rule that Bill Broke

SO YES...YOU CAN VIDEO COACHES SIGNALS.

Welcome to 5 months ago!

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

Re: Pats Fans For Truth Fact Sheet (collect facts)

Thanks, Bradford... I'm casting a broad net I guess. The worst thing that can happen is we have too many (and maybe a too broad collection) and some stuff ends up on the cutting room floor.

I know I have seen the discussions lately of "page 105 [?] of the rulebook". Might have the page wrong... but if anybody can lay hands on that reference and a link it will be fantastic. Anything else by the way is fair game - if it can be sourced we want it!

I hope this is going to result in basically a focused collection of "open source" stuff which anybody can find, but which isn't usually found in one place. Like any other professionals, reporters like tools that make their jobs easier... we aim to provide our friends in the fourth estate with some helpful tools.

PFnV

Found this on Yahoo Answers about the page in the Game Operations Manual...

Page 105 of the 2007 NFL "Game Operations Manual" states, "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

 

[JoeSixPat]

Good to see more Patriots fans coming out of their post-Super Bowl funk and directing their energies productively!

 

[Free_Pacman]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007...-die-bill-belichick-said-jets-didnt-have-per/