The Sox win despite Theo !

[cupofjoe1962]

I am a firm believer that the Sox win dispite Theo, not because of Theo.

Theo is a mediocre GM at best.
If MLB had a hard (Minimum/Max) salary cap Theo would be in trouble.
He would be in trouble on a level playing field.

To spend 111 million on JD Drew & Julio Lugo.
Any GM in a small market would lose his job for waisting that type of money.

Yes the Red Sox did win the world series.
They won the world series because they spend the 2nd most money.
They did not win because of Theo !

Some other great Theo moments.

Signing Renteria and then paying a portion of his contract to play for another team.

Trading Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena and then paying a portion of
Wily Mo's contract to play for another team.

Trading Doug Mirabelli to San Diego for Mark Loretta and then in a panic
move he traded Josh Bard and Clay Merideth to SD for Doug Mirabelli.

Signing JD Drew to a 5 year 75 million dollar contract.

Signing Julio Lugo to a 4 year 36 million dollar contract.

I do agree with Theo's commitment to the farm systerm.
I would like to point out that the Sox spend more money on scouting
than any other team in the majoris (including the yanks).

Theo does not scout the players, he drafts players based on reports
given by the scouts. Theo fired the scout that conviced him to draft
David Murphy over Connor Jackson. Theo had a man-crush on Connor
Jackson, who he could not get in a trade from Josh Byrnes in 2006.
Since 2006 Connor Jackson has turned from a phenom to a platoon
player.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Theo has developed our best farm system and drafting process ever. As far as his trades he's average like everyone else. That great farm system will sustain our winning system for the long haul .. no other GM except for the younger Lou Gorman ever could have pulled it off.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Theo's trades are terrible !
Theo's free agent signings are terrible !

The farm system is only good because we spend the most money.
If the sox did not have deep pockets Theo would be a major flop.

He never mad a Heathcliff Slocumb for Varitek & Lowe signature trade !

 

[IcyPatriot]

Theo's trades are terrible ! I agree.
Theo's free agent signings are terrible ! 50/50 at best.

The farm system is only good because we spend the most money. No ... he modeled it and this is not true. sure $$$ is needed but their program is a good one .. consistant training from bottom to top.
If the sox did not have deep pockets Theo would be a major flop.
It's hard to judge these guys. the same can be said for Brian Cashman ... but they have to spend big to get the players in that will draw crowds and make TV $$$ ... this topic is much broader than we can discuss in a thread.

He never mad a Heathcliff Slocumb for Varitek & Lowe signature trade !
Be serious ... we got lucky on that .. even duquette knows that.

......................

 

[jcdavey]

Theo's trades are terrible !
Theo's free agent signings are terrible !

The farm system is only good because we spend the most money.
If the sox did not have deep pockets Theo would be a major flop.

He never mad a Heathcliff Slocumb for Varitek & Lowe signature trade !

2 ws in 3 years

you're on crack

 

[scout]

Brian Cashman must really, really, suck. Pretty easy to dump on Theo's moves and not recognize his successes, you do remember the first World Series moves. Trading away one of the most popular shortstops in Boston's history. How's that working out for you? He did sign one of the best free agent pitchers before that World Series year and kept him away from the Yankees. How's that working out for you? Doesn't matter Curt's current condition, he helped bring 2 WS to Boston, and that trumps all of Curt's negatives. Do you think the Red Sox would have had the Rookie of The Year last year without Theo? Do you think they might have the second one this year without Theo? They did not re-sign Damon, Pedro, Lowe, after that first WS. You want any of them back? Do you want Arroyo back, he plays a mean guitar. But hey, go ahead and hang your hat on the bankroll issue.

 

[Boston Boxer]

I am a firm believer that the Sox win dispite Theo, not because of Theo.

Theo is a mediocre GM at best.
If MLB had a hard (Minimum/Max) salary cap Theo would be in trouble.
He would be in trouble on a level playing field.

To spend 111 million on JD Drew & Julio Lugo.
Any GM in a small market would lose his job for waisting that type of money.

Yes the Red Sox did win the world series.
They won the world series because they spend the 2nd most money.
They did not win because of Theo !

Some other great Theo moments.

Signing Renteria and then paying a portion of his contract to play for another team.

Trading Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena and then paying a portion of
Wily Mo's contract to play for another team.

Trading Doug Mirabelli to San Diego for Mark Loretta and then in a panic
move he traded Josh Bard and Clay Merideth to SD for Doug Mirabelli.

Signing JD Drew to a 5 year 75 million dollar contract.

Signing Julio Lugo to a 4 year 36 million dollar contract.

I do agree with Theo's commitment to the farm systerm.
I would like to point out that the Sox spend more money on scouting
than any other team in the majoris (including the yanks).

Theo does not scout the players, he drafts players based on reports
given by the scouts. Theo fired the scout that conviced him to draft
David Murphy over Connor Jackson. Theo had a man-crush on Connor
Jackson, who he could not get in a trade from Josh Byrnes in 2006.
Since 2006 Connor Jackson has turned from a phenom to a platoon
player.

you cant judge the FA pick ups of Lugo or Drew until the end of their time with Boston. You are judging on one season. Relax and see how they do through the entire time of their contract.

 

[Foley]

I love these threads. If 100% of the moves a GM makes aren't brilliant and work out perfectly then the GM sucks.

What GM, may I ask, has not made mistakes?

 

[Real World]

Brian Cashman must really, really, suck. Pretty easy to dump on Theo's moves and not recognize his successes, you do remember the first World Series moves. Trading away one of the most popular shortstops in Boston's history. How's that working out for you? He did sign one of the best free agent pitchers before that World Series year and kept him away from the Yankees. How's that working out for you? Doesn't matter Curt's current condition, he helped bring 2 WS to Boston, and that trumps all of Curt's negatives. Do you think the Red Sox would have had the Rookie of The Year last year without Theo? Do you think they might have the second one this year without Theo? They did not re-sign Damon, Pedro, Lowe, after that first WS. You want any of them back? Do you want Arroyo back, he plays a mean guitar. But hey, go ahead and hang your hat on the bankroll issue.

Cashman & Theo are both about the same. Overrated. They spend the most money of all the GM's in the league, and therefore have the ability to buy off their mutlitude of mistakes. Look at both of their trades and free agent aquisitions. They're virtually all awful. Their farms are good, but again, the money they're able to spend is a huge factor. The Yanks and sox spend about $16 million every draft/signing period. More than any of the other teams. This isn't to say that they don't make some good decisions or moves mind you, it simply says that they make more bad moves than good, but are able to overcome them because of the resources they have available. Put Theo or Cashman on say the Indians or Royals, and they'd have each been out of a job a long time ago.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Cashman and Theo have more money than other GMs but are also constrained by different expectations. They need to compete every year and field a real player at nearly every position. They don't have the luxury of filling a hole with crap for a year until a minor leaguer develops or until the guy they really want becomes available. Instead they have to sign Julio Lugo.

I'd probably prefer he never trade again, as they rarely work out for him. You cannot discount the job he has done building the farm and signing lesser FA's like Ortiz, Millar, Mueller, Belhorn, Arroyo, and Okajima.

He's had the good and the bad, but when it is all said and done this team is much better than it was before he showed up. Some of that is ownership, some of it due to Francona, and some of it Theo should get credit for.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

2 ws in 3 years

you're on crack

Your mother must be proud JCDAVEY.
You say we won 2 world series in 3 years.

Where did you go to school?

2004, WS Champs
2005, NO WS
2006, NO WS
2007, WS Champs

2 Championships in 4 years !
Get your facts straight before you make dumb posts that bring nothing to the table !

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Get your facts straight before you make dumb posts that bring nothing to the table !

You shouldn't be holding others to a standard you can't live up to. Theo signed Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Okajima as FA's (you said his free agent signings are terrible). You use the Heathcliff Slocumb trade as an example as one Theo has failed to make, but ignore the fact that Theo has never been in a position to sell like Duquette was.

 

[scout]

You shouldn't be holding others to a standard you can't live up to. Theo signed Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Okajima as FA's (you said his free agent signings are terrible). You use the Heathcliff Slocumb trade as an example as one Theo has failed to make, but ignore the fact that Theo has never been in a position to sell like Duquette was.

Not to mention, using the Heath Slocumb trade example is kind of like using the Tom Brady draft example.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

You shouldn't be holding others to a standard you can't live up to. Theo signed Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Okajima as FA's (you said his free agent signings are terrible). You use the Heathcliff Slocumb trade as an example as one Theo has failed to make, but ignore the fact that Theo has never been in a position to sell like Duquette was.

Sorry Goatboy, but you need to get your facts straight.
Theo has got lucky with some 2nd level free agents.
Okajima, Mueller & Millar.

It is the primary free agents he has bombed on.
Clement, Renteria, Lugo & JD Drew !

He did sign Ortiz, at the request of John Henry.
John Henry was they guy that wanted Ortiz.
Theo's boy that offseason was Jeremy Giambi.

When camp broke Giambi was in the lineup and Ortiz was on the bench.

How did that work out goatboy?

 

[Foley]

It is the primary free agents he has bombed on.
Clement, Renteria, Lugo & JD Drew !

I wouldn't necessarily call any of those signings bombs. Drew and Lugo maybe, but its impossible to adequately judge a trade/signing/acquisition like these after one year. At the end of 2006 everyone said not re-signing Damon and trading for Beckett were mistakes. A year later and both of those moves look great. Both Drew and Lugo improved quite a bit in the second half of 2007, and both hit better in October. Expecting improvements in 2008 wouldn't be a stretch.

As far as Clement, a 4.57ERA is what you should expect from a #3 starter. He pitched well his first season, and then his shoulder turned to shreds and he couldn't pitch again. Injuries happen, and this was nothing that Theo or anyone else could have seen coming a year and a half before it happened when he was signed. Especially considering before 2005 Clement had a long track record of durability (30+ starts every year from '99-05).

And the Renteria signing wasn't a mistake; trading him was. Renteria had a back injury most of 2005 and his performance suffered because of it. I don't believe that 2005 was anything more than an off year due to a lingering injury.

 

[CMcCartney]

New kid on the block Cup o' Joe making friends already! I guess we're going to find out who knows his stuff and who doesn't in here.. I do agree that most of Theo's major signings have been disastrous, and he's lucked out with a few of the middling ones.. As Joe says, Ortiz was not Theo's choice, and who knew Okajima would be the setup guy he was last year? It's hard to predict how Theo would do in a small market.. Most of those teams stay away from big signings anyway, and while he shelled out big bucks for some of these players (Drew, Renteria, Clement), they were not exactly the cornerstone of the team, so he got away with a few things.. I do think the farm system has been excellent, and Theo hasn't made the mistake of giving anyone away.. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.. I'm sure you will!

 

[Foley]

I do agree that most of Theo's major signings have been disastrous, and he's lucked out with a few of the middling ones.. As Joe says, Ortiz was not Theo's choice, and who knew Okajima would be the setup guy he was last year?

I find this rather disingenuous. When he makes a good signing like Okajima its him being lucky, but signings that don't work out perfectly are disastrous and mean hes a poor GM? A GM can't get credit for getting value out of an unexpected source?

 

[jcdavey]

pardon me, 2 in 4 years

you're still on crack if you think he's done a bad job

plus wasn't he gone from the red sox GM job for a season in that 4 year stretch?

 

[cupofjoe1962]

pardon me, 2 in 4 years

you're still on crack if you think he's done a bad job

plus wasn't he gone from the red sox GM job for a season in that 4 year stretch?

Epstein resigned in October 2005, but was rehired as GM and Executive Vice President on January 24, 2006.

Earth to JCDavey.... The Sox season starts in April and ends in October.

Who's on crack?

 

[scout]

I find this rather disingenuous. When he makes a good signing like Okajima its him being lucky, but signings that don't work out perfectly are disastrous and mean hes a poor GM? A GM can't get credit for getting value out of an unexpected source?

BINGO Foley.
CupofJoe is Skip Bayless.