The Patriots front 3 in the past 3 playoff seasons - Below average efforts

[Ring 6]

Well the Giants front line stopped the run AND put pressure
The Colts defense in 2006 stopped/slowed the run AND rushed Brady a lot
The Broncos defense in 2005 also did similar and resulted the smae

If you are a dominating line like our front 3 are supposed to and as good as some think you need to do BOTH stopping the run and pressuring the passer and especially in the crucial games,These 3 have not been able to do it consistently thus we are 0-3 in 3 years in a row - no denying that

I'm just trying to deal in reality.
If you are going to pin a loss on our 3 DL not getting sacks, then you have to blame our defensive philosophy not the players executing it.
Our system calls for the DL to ENGAGE blockers, read the play, play 2 gap D, THEN rush the passer. On passing downs we use OLBs at DE.
To compare pass rush of guys who play 2 gap to pass rush of guys who play one gap and in a system where you stop the run if you happen to on the way to the QB, is not a reasonable comparison.

I just dont think the number of sacks made by 3 guys playing 2 gap run defense before being allowed to rush, and 2 guys playing DT on passing downs, is the primary reason we havent won any of the last 3 SBs.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Probably the last time I saw that was when the Pats were running a one-gap 4-3.

The two-gap 3-4 isn't made to dominate the LOS, its made to control gaps and let the backers chase down the offensive backs.

that's fine, except when your LB corps is basically 5 deep with bunch of ST as your backups. So all the pressure from D lies in the hands of 5 LB, all of whom are 30+.
seau 39
Brus 35
Vrabel 32
Colvin 30
AD 30

Needless to say, if Pioli and BB can't see the failures of last 3 yrs, what more evidence do they need that the LB are the problem of this team. Expecting Vrabel and Colvin to carry the Pass rush load for entire year is stupid.

The ILB have no speed for inside blitzes.

Fact is all of this finally blew up in BB's face at the most critical juncture of the season both in 2007 and 2008.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

I'm just trying to deal in reality.
If you are going to pin a loss on our 3 DL not getting sacks, then you have to blame our defensive philosophy not the players executing it.
Our system calls for the DL to ENGAGE blockers, read the play, play 2 gap D, THEN rush the passer. On passing downs we use OLBs at DE.
To compare pass rush of guys who play 2 gap to pass rush of guys who play one gap and in a system where you stop the run if you happen to on the way to the QB, is not a reasonable comparison.

I just dont think the number of sacks made by 3 guys playing 2 gap run defense before being allowed to rush, and 2 guys playing DT on passing downs, is the primary reason we havent won any of the last 3 SBs.

maybe BB needs to revaluate the D philosophy..This is a PASS FIRST league with all the new rules that were enforced post Pats of 2003-04. Yes stopping the run is important, however, there are no longer ELITE RB's out there with the exception of Tomlinson. There are no Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, curtis Martin, Corey Dillon, The BUS, TD, Marshall Faulk gamechangers as were about 10 yrs ago.

So, expecting your D line to simply control gaps, and let the likes of Boller, Gerrard, Feeley, Eli, Peyton just throw at will against smurf DB's who themselves cant play press, is ancient philosophy.

QB's will rip you apart if given the time. The Giants clearly showed latter part of the year that despite all world QB's with all world WR's, if you get relentless pressure on the QB from front 7, you can stop these teams
-Romo
-Favre
-Brady

were all stoppedby this insane pass rush. In the case of Romo and Favre, the pass rush made the Giants weak secondary look like the secondcoming of Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes

 

[SeymourTrophies]

You could also look at who we had a linebacker in the last three seasons. Our linebacking core this year was the best it has been in 3 years, but it still wasn't great once Colvin went down. In 05 we had 50% of Bruschi, Vrabel, Ted Johnson, and Colvin. Last year we had bruschi at probably 75% of what he was before his stroke, vrabel, colvin, and Banta Cain after we lost Seau. This year our LBs were largely ineffective after the loss of Colvin. Playing with the guys we had at MLB and the fact they really didn't worry anyone consistently probably took more of a toll than Seymour's play. Even we he's playing poorly, Warren and Wilfork command double teams often, so the LBs are still supposed to be free, but they aren't that good.

 

[Ring 6]

maybe BB needs to revaluate the D philosophy..This is a PASS FIRST league with all the new rules that were enforced post Pats of 2003-04. Yes stopping the run is important, however, there are no longer ELITE RB's out there with the exception of Tomlinson. There are no Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, curtis Martin, Corey Dillon, The BUS, TD, Marshall Faulk gamechangers as were about 10 yrs ago.

So, expecting your D line to simply control gaps, and let the likes of Boller, Gerrard, Feeley, Eli, Peyton just throw at will against smurf DB's who themselves cant play press, is ancient philosophy.

QB's will rip you apart if given the time. The Giants clearly showed latter part of the year that despite all world QB's with all world WR's, if you get relentless pressure on the QB from front 7, you can stop these teams
-Romo
-Favre
-Brady

were all stoppedby this insane pass rush. In the case of Romo and Favre, the pass rush made the Giants weak secondary look like the secondcoming of Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes

Your comments sound like you are talking about the Dolphins or Falcons.
I didn't realize QBs threw at will on us when we lost 1 game all year, and that was by allowing 17 points.
I hardly consider the Giants OR ANY TEAMS pass rush INSANE. Sure, you can control a game or 2 with it, but the way the passing game is today, you simply cannot consistently dominate solely with a pass rush. The Giants led the NFL in sacks and barely had 3 a game.
If you want to abandon run defense principles and be in 2nd and 4 all day, I don't know how you get a pass rush that way either.

Quite frankly, the issue I see with our defense is not a jaded idea of taking everything away from every team on every play, thats just not realistic.
The problem I see is coverage from LBs, safeties and nickel/dime backs. I cannot rip our corners, because they have covered well all year. However, when team have moved the ball well on us, its come in the middle of the field, its come on plays like the Boss catch, and the Tyree catch, and it comes in obvious passing sitautions, particularly 2 minute drills.
The best pass D we have ever played was when Wilson was a starting safety, but played the slot in the nickel, when we had Law and Poole at corners, when we had Rodney Harrison in his prime, Bruschi in his prime.
We made stops on 2 minute drives because we could cover. We dont cover as well in the middle of the field (Remember anything we say we dont do well has to be looked at as an 18-1 team, that was 1minute from winning it all, so we are splitting hairs. We do everything better than most)

 

[everlong]

I would imagine they will restructure Colvin's contact using the one year remaining as a signing bonus so they can get some cap relief for 08.

 

[Marko]

I'm just trying to deal in reality.
If you are going to pin a loss on our 3 DL not getting sacks, then you have to blame our defensive philosophy not the players executing it.
Our system calls for the DL to ENGAGE blockers, read the play, play 2 gap D, THEN rush the passer. On passing downs we use OLBs at DE.
To compare pass rush of guys who play 2 gap to pass rush of guys who play one gap and in a system where you stop the run if you happen to on the way to the QB, is not a reasonable comparison.

I just dont think the number of sacks made by 3 guys playing 2 gap run defense before being allowed to rush, and 2 guys playing DT on passing downs, is the primary reason we havent won any of the last 3 SBs.

Exactly, Andy always has salient arguments. the front three in a 3-4 is not measured with sacks! Much of the pressure is supposed to come from one or more of the LB's this is why Mcginest was effective, you could move him around or put him in coverage and it's harder to tell where the pressure is going to come from.

 

[Marko]

Your comments sound like you are talking about the Dolphins or Falcons.
I didn't realize QBs threw at will on us when we lost 1 game all year, and that was by allowing 17 points.
I hardly consider the Giants OR ANY TEAMS pass rush INSANE. Sure, you can control a game or 2 with it, but the way the passing game is today, you simply cannot consistently dominate solely with a pass rush. The Giants led the NFL in sacks and barely had 3 a game.
If you want to abandon run defense principles and be in 2nd and 4 all day, I don't know how you get a pass rush that way either.

Quite frankly, the issue I see with our defense is not a jaded idea of taking everything away from every team on every play, thats just not realistic.
The problem I see is coverage from LBs, safeties and nickel/dime backs. I cannot rip our corners, because they have covered well all year. However, when team have moved the ball well on us, its come in the middle of the field, its come on plays like the Boss catch, and the Tyree catch, and it comes in obvious passing sitautions, particularly 2 minute drills.
The best pass D we have ever played was when Wilson was a starting safety, but played the slot in the nickel, when we had Law and Poole at corners, when we had Rodney Harrison in his prime, Bruschi in his prime.
We made stops on 2 minute drives because we could cover. We dont cover as well in the middle of the field (Remember anything we say we dont do well has to be looked at as an 18-1 team, that was 1minute from winning it all, so we are splitting hairs. We do everything better than most)

Another good point i was just thinking today how when Law and Poole were our corners W/Harrison and Wilson @safety in '03 our d was the bomb!

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Another good point i was just thinking today how when Law and Poole were our corners W/Harrison and Wilson @safety in '03 our d was the bomb!

they were pretty physical corners. maybe that's what we need to go back to

 

[Ring 6]

Exactly, Andy always has salient arguments. the front three in a 3-4 is not measured with sacks! Much of the pressure is supposed to come from one or more of the LB's this is why Mcginest was effective, you could move him around or put him in coverage and it's harder to tell where the pressure is going to come from.

I think the biggest difference of the last 2 years vs the Championship years is coverage in pass situations. Nickelback, safety and LB have been weak in coverage in obvious passing situations.
Look back at the 2minute drills. The SB, each game that was close. The weakness, perhaps only weakness of our defense this year, was that when teams went into the 2 minute drill, receivers we open in the middle of the field. (I would add 3rd down to that, but overall we played well on 3rd down all year, it just wasn't very good in those situations).
Think about the drives we allowed that kept the few close games we had close, and the final drive of the SB. Where did QBs go to beat us? The middle of the field. What did you see? Nickel backs and safeties allowing catches in front of them then coming up to make the hit. LBs one step or 2 out of the passing lane.
We need to improve the SPEED and more importantly coverage ability of all the other guys except the starting 2 corners, to be better in these situations.

Think about it. You go into a 2 minute drill vs the Pats. In coverage we are going to have Gay at nickel (and in some cases a safety instead) Rodney Harrison and Sanders at S, Bruschi/Seau, Vrabel/Thoams in coverage.
That has to be the slowest group in the NFL.

This team was soooooooooooo good that it never hurt it but for 2 occassions:
1) In 2006 when the Colts were down a bundle and ran the 2 minute offense the entire second half and
2) SB XLII when the game was won if we could stop a 2 minute offense, one that isn't exactly the greatest Ive ever seen. Yes, we dropped a couple of coulda, shoulds, woulda Ints, and couldnt bring Manning down, but go back and look at the coverage. They threw to the middle of the field. Boss ramble 45 yards. He is slow. We were slower. Tyree was way too open in the middle of the field after Manning started running for his life. Rodney of 2 years ago, Eugene Wilson of 2 years ago, etc would have made that catch impossible, or picked it off. Instead, our secondary was in the picture but not in good coverage every time they went to the middle of the field.

 

[jbb9s]

they were pretty physical corners. maybe that's what we need to go back to

I really always liked Law. He became overpriced but he got it done out there and made huge picks - like SB 36 and the 3 against Manning's 49 TD season.

 

[Ring 6]

Another good point i was just thinking today how when Law and Poole were our corners W/Harrison and Wilson @safety in '03 our d was the bomb!

Rodney is 3 years and 3 injuries slower. Wilson was a corner playing safety, Sanders is a safety.
I'm not going to rip our defense to shreads here. It is among the best in the NFL. But, I think we have recognized (and Im sure BB has) that for everything the D does very well, there is one area it struggles, and unfortunately that area is one that often decided playoff games.

I guess another way to put it would be this:
We are good enough to overcome a weakness in 2 minute defense many, many times.
But, in the playoffs, it is highly unlikely you can win a Championship if you cannot play sound 2 minute defense.
The 'blueprint' that everyone wanted to write, IMO, was written Sunday. And it isnt the pass rush against our offense.
It is: Hang in the game, and make it come down to our defense stopping you in a 2 minute drill.

Every close game we had, the 2 minute defense at half and in the 4th quarter was an issue. We overcame it until this week. This time we couldn't overcome it because the Giants stayed within a score and only left us 35 seconds, after taking advantage of our largest weakness.

 

[Marko]

I think the biggest difference of the last 2 years vs the Championship years is coverage in pass situations. Nickelback, safety and LB have been weak in coverage in obvious passing situations.
Look back at the 2minute drills. The SB, each game that was close. The weakness, perhaps only weakness of our defense this year, was that when teams went into the 2 minute drill, receivers we open in the middle of the field. (I would add 3rd down to that, but overall we played well on 3rd down all year, it just wasn't very good in those situations).
Think about the drives we allowed that kept the few close games we had close, and the final drive of the SB. Where did QBs go to beat us? The middle of the field. What did you see? Nickel backs and safeties allowing catches in front of them then coming up to make the hit. LBs one step or 2 out of the passing lane.
We need to improve the SPEED and more importantly coverage ability of all the other guys except the starting 2 corners, to be better in these situations.

Think about it. You go into a 2 minute drill vs the Pats. In coverage we are going to have Gay at nickel (and in some cases a safety instead) Rodney Harrison and Sanders at S, Bruschi/Seau, Vrabel/Thoams in coverage.
That has to be the slowest group in the NFL.

This team was soooooooooooo good that it never hurt it but for 2 occassions:
1) In 2006 when the Colts were down a bundle and ran the 2 minute offense the entire second half and
2) SB XLII when the game was won if we could stop a 2 minute offense, one that isn't exactly the greatest Ive ever seen. Yes, we dropped a couple of coulda, shoulds, woulda Ints, and couldnt bring Manning down, but go back and look at the coverage. They threw to the middle of the field. Boss ramble 45 yards. He is slow. We were slower. Tyree was way too open in the middle of the field after Manning started running for his life. Rodney of 2 years ago, Eugene Wilson of 2 years ago, etc would have made that catch impossible, or picked it off. Instead, our secondary was in the picture but not in good coverage every time they went to the middle of the field.

Yes but on broken plays like that i was surprised that Rodney was as close as he was because generally when the QB escapes not onc but twice most of the time coverage completely breaks down, even before he threw it when Eli got away and was winding up I was like "Shiieeeeeet here it comes"! And honestly the d was there they just didn't make the plays given to them-Asante and Meriweather just had to catch it-GAME OVER!!!!! Ty makes that catch 100 out of 100 times!!!