Can we trade Stallworth before 2/25 ?

[BelichickFan]

According to Miguel's page, 2/25 is when his option bonus is due. I think most of us believe that won't be picked up unless Moss is leaving.

Going with that plan, assuming Moss will be staying (we may not have a contract signed by then, I believe we can't, in fact, if ESPN is correct) and Stallworth won't, can we trade him ? I am assuming we can because until we decline the bonus, he is still under contract - or is there some technicality that says he's not technically ours for next year until the option is picked up ?

 

[jscout]

Why would anyone want to make a trade before then? If I were a GM, I'd wait to see what the Pats do first.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

According to Miguel's page, 2/25 is when his option bonus is due. I think most of us believe that won't be picked up unless Moss is leaving.

Going with that plan, assuming Moss will be staying (we may not have a contract signed by then, I believe we can't, in fact, if ESPN is correct) and Stallworth won't, can we trade him ? I am assuming we can because until we decline the bonus, he is still under contract - or is there some technicality that says he's not technically ours for next year until the option is picked up ?

Im pretty sure you cant trade him because usually there is some wording in there that would negate bascially everything you just said. Now do i know this as fact? No, but im willing to bet there is such wording in there.

I was wondering if the option is due that soon could Stallworth redo his whole deal again and technically stay with us if he chooses?

 

[JoePats]

Why would anyone want to make a trade before then? If I were a GM, I'd wait to see what the Pats do first.

You could trade for the guy and pick up his option and have him for 4 more years. I don't think a team would do that though without talking to him first. I think he's better than anyone you could sign in free agency (assuming Moss is re-signed here) and he's better than whoever you're getting in the 3rd round.

 

[jscout]

You could trade for the guy and pick up his option and have him for 4 more years. I don't think a team would do that though without talking to him first. I think he's better than anyone you could sign in free agency (assuming Moss is re-signed here) and he's better than whoever you're getting in the 3rd round.

That's my point. If I trade for him, I'd inherit his huge contract. Look at the terms:
"For the Patriots to retain Stallworth for the 2008 season, they must pay him an option bonus of $6 million by Feb. 25, 2008. There is a subsequent roster bonus of $2 million due March 1, a second roster bonus of $1.6 million based on playing time, a base salary of $1 million and a $400,000 workout bonus. That totals an exorbitant $11 million for 2008, or a two-year total of $14.6 million.

To keep Stallworth for 2009, the Patriots would have to pay another option bonus, this one of $2 million, by Feb. 25 of that year. In terms of bonuses and base salary, the 2009 season would be worth $5 million to Stallworth, for a three-year total of $19.6 million.

The final three seasons of the contract all include workout bonuses of $500,000 each and base salaries of $4 million each. The maximum value of the contract, if the Patriots were to keep Stallworth for all six years, is $33.1 million."

 

[BelichickFan]

Why would anyone want to make a trade before then? If I were a GM, I'd wait to see what the Pats do first.

His contract isn't bad, it's about $6M a year over 5 years. That might be a touch his for right now but when you account for the big inflation of salaries that we always see, I think it's about right over the length of the contract.

Why would anyone trade for him ? Because a lot of teams have a lot of cap room. If we let him become a UFA he would probably cost more than his current contract if 31 teams can talk to him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You could trade for the guy and pick up his option and have him for 4 more years. I don't think a team would do that though without talking to him first. I think he's better than anyone you could sign in free agency (assuming Moss is re-signed here) and he's better than whoever you're getting in the 3rd round.

You can't make a trade until the FA period opens. Players in the last year of a deal (which is what Donte is absent picking up the option) are essentially FA in limbo once the regular season ends. So Donte can't be traded UNLESS we pick up the option. And that would not make cap sense because the $6M option bonus would then remain on our cap.

His prove it contract was structured to protect him from being traded. It's pay me or let me go back to market as a FA. And it forces the team to fish or cut bait with him BEFORE they can sign or tag a player like...Moss. Because Moss' deal was altered after he arrived here, he cannot be re-signed until FA opens either. So they have to make a decision on Donte first. Same deal with Washington although his option date is likely the more standard March 1 or prior to the March FA date.

It's also likely they couldn't get Gaffney to sign now before FA either unless they offer some premium. Why would a guy this close to that do it? He could have been extended last fall, so you have to ask yourself why they didn't do that already.

 

[BelichickFan]

That totals an exorbitant $11 million for 2008, or a two-year total of $14.6 million.

That's money paid out, not an $11M cap hit next year :

http://www.patscap.com/futureyears.html

 

[BelichickFan]

You can't make a trade until the FA period opens. Players in the last year of a deal (which is what Donte is absent picking up the option) are essentially FA in limbo once the regular season ends. So Donte can't be traded UNLESS we pick up the option. And that would not make cap sense because the $6M option bonus would then remain on our cap.

That's what I was wondering, whether a contract with an option is considered an expired contract or not. Clearly you are correct that trading him after picking up the option wouldn't work.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

That's money paid out, not an $11M cap hit next year :

http://www.patscap.com/futureyears.html

Who the hell is Jimmy Martin?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That's money paid out, not an $11M cap hit next year :

http://www.patscap.com/futureyears.html

Lenny P did everyone a disservice when he penned his piece on the Stallworth contract. It was a perfectly reasonable deal for a #1 WR. Try to find one who will take $11M in bonus money split over three tiers... Branch wouldn't. His cap hit for 2009 is in the $4M range, which means his $6M hit for 2008 could be restructured by converting his additional roster bonus money to signing bonus. They could easily keep reshuffling the deck chairs on that deal to be low while Moss was the #1a and high once he's the #1b or #2. In fact they could fashion a Moss deal that is more front loaded and easy on the back end.

 

[BelichickFan]

It will be fascinating to see what they do this offseason. I think we all agree Samuel will leave (although we'll have exclusive negotiating rights for a little while before Free Agency starts).

Some think Colvin may be released but I think he'll be back regardless of re-doing his deal. Colvin/Vrabel at OLB and Thomas at ILB is a good start to what will likely be a new look LB corps next year.

Assuming Moss resigns, we have him, Welker and Chad Jackson back. I wouldn't be surprised if we bring Washington back even at the $3M - with his ST play he's worth a decent amount but I think he can play a good role at WR after this year learning the offense. Then we'll just see if they want to spend big money on Stallworth, moderate money on Gaffney or get a cheap guy to go with Moss, Welker, Washington, Jackson.

 

[Watson's IQ]

Assuming Moss resigns, we have him, Welker and Chad Jackson back. I wouldn't be surprised if we bring Washington back even at the $3M - with his ST play he's worth a decent amount but I think he can play a good role at WR after this year learning the offense. Then we'll just see if they want to spend big money on Stallworth, moderate money on Gaffney or get a cheap guy to go with Moss, Welker, Washington, Jackson.

I would expect one of Gaffney or Stallworth to be back, but not both.

I really think they'll want to bring Chad Jackson along and work him into the offense to see what they have in the kid. He was so highly touted coming out and because of injuries, and the Patriots incredible depth, hasn't really gotten a chance. I think he could have a Stallworth-type role next season, and I'd like to see that.

I'd be shocked if they weren't five quality guys deep again at WR next year. I think a Moss, Jackson, Welker, Gaffney, Washington line-up makes some sense.

 

[spacecrime]

That's my point. If I trade for him, I'd inherit his huge contract. Look at the terms:
"For the Patriots to retain Stallworth for the 2008 season, they must pay him an option bonus of $6 million by Feb. 25, 2008. There is a subsequent roster bonus of $2 million due March 1, a second roster bonus of $1.6 million based on playing time, a base salary of $1 million and a $400,000 workout bonus. That totals an exorbitant $11 million for 2008, or a two-year total of $14.6 million.

To keep Stallworth for 2009, the Patriots would have to pay another option bonus, this one of $2 million, by Feb. 25 of that year. In terms of bonuses and base salary, the 2009 season would be worth $5 million to Stallworth, for a three-year total of $19.6 million.

The final three seasons of the contract all include workout bonuses of $500,000 each and base salaries of $4 million each. The maximum value of the contract, if the Patriots were to keep Stallworth for all six years, is $33.1 million."

Yeah, so? We offered Branch $30+ mil for five years, and that was in 2005. Everyone makes a big deal over the $11 mil in 2008, but if we try to sign a decent WR, we are going to have to pay a signing bonus anyway.

What's wrong with Moss, Stallworth and Welker all in the fold for the next five years?

 

[Oswlek]

Yeah, so? We offered Branch $30+ mil for five years, and that was in 2005. Everyone makes a big deal over the $11 mil in 2008, but if we try to sign a decent WR, we are going to have to pay a signing bonus anyway.

What's wrong with Moss, Stallworth and Welker all in the fold for the next five years?

Correct. I say it every time, but no one seems to pay attention.

A 5yr 33 mllion contract with an $11mm signing bonus is actually reasonable for a #1 WR.

It is just debatable whether anyone feels that Donte is. If they do, however, those numbers are probably around what they would offer him anyway, if not less.

 

[Watson's IQ]

It is just debatable whether anyone feels that Donte is. If they do, however, those numbers are probably around what they would offer him anyway, if not less.

He certainly would have been our #1 receiver this year if Moss hadn't been acquired, and I think he showed flashes this year that showed he was capable of producing to that level. Given all the weapons we had, I wasn't disappointed with the season Donte had. And even in hindsight, I don't think it was/is a bad contract.

 

[BelichickFan]

He certainly would have been our #1 receiver this year if Moss hadn't been acquired

That's the thing - we signed that contract before we knew Moss was coming. Stallworth and Welker were the WR upgrade for this season. It just happened that Moss strolled in too That's why I fully expect Stallworth to leave, it's not his fault, he's been fine and would have been worth the option bonus had Moss not shown up. Having them all ended up being a dream team group at WR but very likely only for one season.

 

[Oswlek]

He certainly would have been our #1 receiver this year if Moss hadn't been acquired, and I think he showed flashes this year that showed he was capable of producing to that level. Given all the weapons we had, I wasn't disappointed with the season Donte had. And even in hindsight, I don't think it was/is a bad contract.

I'm sure that some of this is me unfairly comparing him to Moss, but I am mildly disappointed with Donte. I thought that he had turned the corner last year in Philly and become a guy who just forces you to give him the ball.

From what I have seen, he is exceptional with the ball in his hands, but he just doesn't get open enough to be a #1. And this is in spite of rarely ever seeing a double team. His hands aren't anything special and he also doesn't fight for the ball in traffic well either. Donte's running skills is why NE makes a point to get him the ball with bubble screens and quick hitches.

I still think that He-who-cannot-be-named-on-a-Pats-board-who-used-to-play-for-the-Pats was a better receiver. You can be sure that "he" would have been more involved in the offense even with Moss.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yeah, so? We offered Branch $30+ mil for five years, and that was in 2005. Everyone makes a big deal over the $11 mil in 2008, but if we try to sign a decent WR, we are going to have to pay a signing bonus anyway.

What's wrong with Moss, Stallworth and Welker all in the fold for the next five years?

Nothing, it's all about choices and managing the cap. Perhaps we manage around it with a younger, cheaper secondary over the next 3-5 years not to mention a new deal for the QB that frees up millions in cap over the near term. Brady will continue to leave money on the table to build this team annually, particularly on offense...

What it will come down to are things we have no knowledge of, nor does the media. Is Stallworth not measuring up or are there other issues afoot, as was the case with that glass RB of ours...

Is CJ ready to step up and they are just holding off absent a need, or is he still MIA, do they like Gaffney long term and just neglected to extend him, or do they think they can spend their money more wisely and he wants more long term than they think he's worth. Is Washington a ST demon who could be a legit #4 or is he just what we see. They may not know entirely, but they see things in practice we can't possibly see.

I do know they are very high on Stallworth's skill set and talent. Whether they feel they still need it, or it could stand alone if need be, remains to be seen. I think with this offense you need to be redundant in case of injury if Moss remains at the top of the depth chart. I don't see Gaffney subbing for him along side CJ and Washington. If Bill does, so be it, but I'm not willing to assume it based on what I have seen to date.

I lived through the Bethel's potential period too. Bill isn't gonna just keep you because you flash potential and/or you're cheap. At some point you either live up to your potential or you're out.

 

[Watson's IQ]

I'm sure that some of this is me unfairly comparing him to Moss, but I am mildly disappointed with Donte. I thought that he had turned the corner last year in Philly and become a guy who just forces you to give him the ball.

From what I have seen, he is exceptional with the ball in his hands, but he just doesn't get open enough to be a #1. And this is in spite of rarely ever seeing a double team. His hands aren't anything special and he also doesn't fight for the ball in traffic well either. Donte's running skills is why NE makes a point to get him the ball with bubble screens and quick hitches.

I still think that He-who-cannot-be-named-on-a-Pats-board-who-used-to-play-for-the-Pats was a better receiver. You can be sure that "he" would have been more involved in the offense even with Moss.

You make some good points. Maybe you are unfairly comparing him to Moss some (not really a fair comparison for anyone, but not an unreasonable one to make since they play together).

It's obviously impossible for us to say what role Donte would have had if Moss hadn't been on the time or (god forbid) hadn't worked out like he did.

Seems to me that a lot of Brady's throws were either deeper routes to Randy or the underneath stuff to guys like Welker and Faulk, etc.. Donte was kind of caught in the middle of these two, and it never really became a necessity for him to be featured heavily in the offense.

That said, I agree with you about both his positives and his negatives.