The Big Lie

[Zeus]

I keep seeing everywhere how well the Giants played against the Patriots and how close New York came to winning the game. Last time I checked, a twelve point lead early in the third quarter constitutes neither a win nor a near-win (whatever that means).

NE had 11 possessions, two of which were kneel-downs (end of first half, end of game). Of the remaining nine possessions, NE scored seven times - four TDs (with one two point conversion) and and 3 FGs. Once the Giants established the twelve point lead (9:12 left in the third quarter), NE ripped off 22 unanswered points, scoring TDs in three of the next four drives. On a night in which NE was missing two of five starting OLs (Neal and Kaczur) and their best blocking tight end, they put up 38 points in cold, windy conditions. And it could have been worse had NE executed better in Giants territory.

If that's the best they've got, you might start to wonder if the Giants D can manage to hold NE under 50 in the Arizona weather.

We might also think about the Giants' last score which produced the much celebrated three point margin - a 68 yard drive which consumed 3:32, leaving 1:04 on the clock. NE played a very soft prevent defense precisely because Belichick has always been willing to concede that score as long as enough time elapses.

I greatly admire the Giants for the effort put forth in that game and if that's what has inspired them to play at a higher level in the play-offs, then good for them. Nevertheless, the media droning on endlessly that the Giants played great and that they almost won doesn't make it true.

 

[C'est La Vie]

I keep seeing everywhere how well the Giants played against the Patriots and how close New York came to winning the game. Last time I checked, a twelve point lead early in the third quarter constitutes neither a win nor a near-win (whatever that means).

NE had 11 possessions, two of which were kneel-downs (end of first half, end of game). Of the remaining nine possessions, NE scored seven times - four TDs (with one two point conversion) and and 3 FGs. Once the Giants established the twelve point lead (9:12 left in the third quarter), NE ripped off 22 unanswered points, scoring TDs in three of the next four drives. On a night in which NE was missing two of five starting OLs (Neal and Kaczur) and their best blocking tight end, they put up 38 points in cold, windy conditions. And it could have been worse had NE executed better in Giants territory.

If that's the best they've got, you might start to wonder if the Giants D can manage to hold NE under 50 in the Arizona weather.

We might also think about the Giants' last score which produced the much celebrated three point margin - a 68 yard drive which consumed 3:32, leaving 1:04 on the clock. NE played a very soft prevent defense precisely because Belichick has always been willing to concede that score as long as enough time elapses.

I greatly admire the Giants for the effort put forth in that game and if that's what has inspired them to play at a higher level in the play-offs, then good for them. Nevertheless, the media droning on endlessly that the Giants played great and that they almost won doesn't make it true.

On this play:

1st-10-NE35 Incomplete Pass Tom Brady Pass Incomplete to Wes Welker
2nd-10-NE35 Incomplete Pass Tom Brady Pass Incomplete to Randy Moss
3rd-10-NE35 Pass Tom Brady Pass to Randy Moss for 65 yards for a TOUCHDOWN
Two Point Conversion 2pt Run for 2 yards. Successful.


Madison was injured, as a result of the previous bomb attempt. Great play call to recognize the deficiency, and of course, it's the "if" game, but that was very fortuitous.


And on this series:

Kickoff Stephen Gostkowski kicks 65 yards from NE30 to NYG5, Domenik Hixon returns to NYG38 for 33 yards
Penalty NYG-Amani Toomer PENALIZED -15 yards for Personal Foul
1st-10-NYG23 Rush Brandon Jacobs Off Right Tackle to NYG29 for 6 yards
2nd-4-NYG29 Rush Brandon Jacobs Off Right Guard to NYG37 for 8 yards
Penalty NYG-Amani Toomer PENALIZED -10 yards for Holding
2nd-6-NYG27 Time Out New England Patriots timeout.
2nd-6-NYG27 Interception Eli Manning pass intended for Plaxico Burress intercepted by Ellis


I'd say Toomer was a big fat goat. Not sure what he did to earn to fouls for 25 yards, but that, coupled with some additonal dropped passes, and you would think he'd been paid by the Pats.

Not excuses for the Giants, but look, they had the largest lead as late in any game as the Pats have had. Pats stepped up and stopped the Giants when they needed it, but yeah, NYG came as close as INDY, PHILLY, BALT did.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

We might also think about the Giants' last score which produced the much celebrated three point margin - a 68 yard drive which consumed 3:32, leaving 1:04 on the clock. NE played a very soft prevent defense precisely because Belichick has always been willing to concede that score as long as enough time elapses.

Bingo. The Giants had 4 and a half minutes, two timeouts and the two minute warning to get two scores. Much like Philly at the end of SB39, they took their sweet time, not hurrying to the line or throwing many sideline passes to stop the clock. The Pats were more than willing to let them chew up clock and yards in such a manner. After burning one timeout, passing the two minute warning and they hadn't scored yet, the game was essentially over unless they could pull off the ultra low percentage onside kick recovery. So they score to pull within 3, but by that point the game was over.

Edit: This is one example of why the Pats have a huge edge at the two key "cerebral" positions on each team: QB and head coach. Coughlin and/or Eli completely botched the end of that game. Yet people think they're going to pull one over on the Pats. I don't get it.

Regards,
Chris

 

[BelichickFan]

The things which kept it close were :

Red Zone where we kicked 3 FG and the Giants had 4 TDs in 4 chances.
The stupid celebration penalty which caused the KO return TD.
The "prevent" TD at the end.

Better play in the red zone (both O and D) and nothing stupid should make for a relaxing 4th quarter for the good guys (that's us).

 

[Deus Irae]

On this play:

1st-10-NE35 Incomplete Pass Tom Brady Pass Incomplete to Wes Welker
2nd-10-NE35 Incomplete Pass Tom Brady Pass Incomplete to Randy Moss
3rd-10-NE35 Pass Tom Brady Pass to Randy Moss for 65 yards for a TOUCHDOWN
Two Point Conversion 2pt Run for 2 yards. Successful.


Madison was injured, as a result of the previous bomb attempt. Great play call to recognize the deficiency, and of course, it's the "if" game, but that was very fortuitous.


And on this series:

Kickoff Stephen Gostkowski kicks 65 yards from NE30 to NYG5, Domenik Hixon returns to NYG38 for 33 yards
Penalty NYG-Amani Toomer PENALIZED -15 yards for Personal Foul
1st-10-NYG23 Rush Brandon Jacobs Off Right Tackle to NYG29 for 6 yards
2nd-4-NYG29 Rush Brandon Jacobs Off Right Guard to NYG37 for 8 yards
Penalty NYG-Amani Toomer PENALIZED -10 yards for Holding
2nd-6-NYG27 Time Out New England Patriots timeout.
2nd-6-NYG27 Interception Eli Manning pass intended for Plaxico Burress intercepted by Ellis


I'd say Toomer was a big fat goat. Not sure what he did to earn to fouls for 25 yards, but that, coupled with some additonal dropped passes, and you would think he'd been paid by the Pats.

Not excuses for the Giants, but look, they had the largest lead as late in any game as the Pats have had. Pats stepped up and stopped the Giants when they needed it, but yeah, NYG came as close as INDY, PHILLY, BALT did.

New England took the lead for good with 11:29 still left in the game against the Giants.

New England took the lead for good with 7:24 still left in the game against the Eagles.

New England took the lead for good with 3:58 still left in the game against the Colts.

New England took the lead for good with .55 still left in the game against the Ravens.

 

[alamo]

The stupid celebration penalty which caused the KO return TD.

Please explain to me... I seriously don't understand. How did the penalty cause the TD? So he had to run 15 yards less, the runback was 74 yards instead of 89. Only explanation I can think of is "loss of focus by the Patriots after the penalty" and that's weak.

 

[BelichickFan]

Please explain to me... I seriously don't understand. How did the penalty cause the TD? So he had to run 15 yards less, the runback was 74 yards instead of 89. Only explanation I can think of is "loss of focus by the Patriots after the penalty" and that's weak.

Well I'm not saying that it wasn't bad coverage, it's clearly not acceptable to have a KO returned for a TD wherever the kick is from. However, without the penalty it would have been a normal kickoff and almost assuredly would have had a different result.

We've had one kickoff from the 15 (I think that's where it was from) this year (unless I forgot another) and it was returned for a TD.

We've had 91 kickoffs from the 30 and none of them were returned for a TD.

Our kickoff/coverage did a crappy job in a bad situation - but it's clear to me that a normal kickoff isn't returned for a TD.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

On this play:


Penalty NYG-Amani Toomer PENALIZED -15 yards for Personal Foul

I'd say Toomer was a big fat goat. Not sure what he did to earn to fouls for 25 yards, but that, coupled with some additonal dropped passes, and you would think he'd been paid by the Pats.

Not excuses for the Giants, but look, they had the largest lead as late in any game as the Pats have had. Pats stepped up and stopped the Giants when they needed it, but yeah, NYG came as close as INDY, PHILLY, BALT did.

I brought it up in another thread, but this penalty on Toomer was not really on him, it was on the fat backup QB, he tripped Samuel in the bench area, but the penalty was attributed to Toomer because he was next to him. Officials don't like guys being messed with in the opposing team's bench which was why the call was made. I watched this several times and I'm sure it was the backup QB, he walked by trying to make it look like he didn't do anything, but he clearly tripped Samuel.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

Please explain to me... I seriously don't understand. How did the penalty cause the TD? So he had to run 15 yards less, the runback was 74 yards instead of 89. Only explanation I can think of is "loss of focus by the Patriots after the penalty" and that's weak.

Because coverage wasn't sufficient to counter the shorter field for the Giants.

If you had teams kicking off from the 20 instead of the 35, you'd probably see more returns like that, at least until such time coverage was adjusted for the new reality.

It was kind of like last season, in the game against Tennessee, when Sauerbrun outkicked coverage, permitting Pacman Jones acres of room to run around in....

 

[jscout]

Because coverage wasn't sufficient to counter the shorter field for the Giants.

If you had teams kicking off from the 20 instead of the 35, you'd probably see more returns like that, at least until such time coverage was adjusted for the new reality.

It was kind of like last season, in the game against Tennessee, when Sauerbrun outkicked coverage, permitting Pacman Jones acres of room to run around in....

Plus, kicking off closer might have resulted in a touchback.

 

[Brownfan80]

Please explain to me... I seriously don't understand. How did the penalty cause the TD? So he had to run 15 yards less, the runback was 74 yards instead of 89. Only explanation I can think of is "loss of focus by the Patriots after the penalty" and that's weak.

Teams practice plays a lot. But they don't often practice with a player starting 15 yards farther along than he's supposed to be. The timing and adjustments needed to cover such a short kick are probably much different.

It was probably also a lack of focus, but you can't say the 15 yarder didn't hurt the Patriots coverage units. How many other TD runbacks did they give up this year?

 

[alamo]

Because coverage wasn't sufficient to counter the shorter field for the Giants.

If you had teams kicking off from the 20 instead of the 35, you'd probably see more returns like that, at least until such time coverage was adjusted for the new reality.

It was kind of like last season, in the game against Tennessee, when Sauerbrun outkicked coverage, permitting Pacman Jones acres of room to run around in....

I don't understand why the coverage changes at all when the kickoff moves back 15 yards. The teams still start in the same place relative to each other. Without the penalty the kick goes 59 yards to the 11, instread it went 59 yards to the 36. Big deal. There wasn't a touchback on a kickoff all night, so there would have been a runback even without the penalty.

When I get a chance I'll have to watch it again but I just don't see how the penalty made a difference on the return.

 

[BelichickFan]

but I just don't see how the penalty made a difference on the return.

Again, the stats tell you. 0/91 KO returns for a TD kicking off from the 30. We blew it, no doubt, but the chance of that TD happening in the SB without a penalty is basically zero.

 

[alamo]

Teams practice plays a lot. But they don't often practice with a player starting 15 yards farther along than he's supposed to be. The timing and adjustments needed to cover such a short kick are probably much different.

But the kick wasn't any shorter than the others, it was just from the 15 to the 36 instead of from the 30 to the 11. Same distance. If timing is based on the yardline I can't imagine the Pats don't practice it just in case.

 

[alamo]

Again, the stats tell you. 0/91 KO returns for a TD kicking off from the 30. We blew it, no doubt, but the chance of that TD happening in the SB without a penalty is basically zero.

I think that explains why people think and say the penalty caused it... but I think that's an easy but false explanation. When your kicker is kicking off for touchbacks then yes a penalty has an effect, but there wasn't anything close to a touchback by us all night.

 

[Buchanty]

I know it's going to be a long 10 days and the media storm is only going to get worse, but you must know that the NFL, ESPN and the rest of the sporting circus want everyone to think that this is going to be a tight competitive game. They have an uphill struggle because of the 18-0 record on one side, and so they have to wildly over-compensate the prowess of the Giants on the other. What they least want is anyone realizing that this could be a blow-out, because it means lost audience, lost sponsors and ultimately lost revenue.

"Any give Sunday" has been overused, and isnt going to persuade the greater population (ie outside of NE and NY) to devote a Sunday night to their show.
As a result everything will be done to promote the event as competitive. That will include inflating past performances (week 17), talents (Eli's QB Stats), any suggestion of cheating or foul play and of course overexposure over the course of two weeks for most if not all of the Giants' players. A case in point is Inside the NFL that promises next week to have Strahan on their show from Arizona and a Collinsworth interview with Manning with nary a whisper about any Patriot.

I personally dont mind this as I believe if it continues until Superbowl Sunday it will inevitably engender overconfidence in the Big Blue, enough for them to lose focus on their own weaknesses, faults and tendencies. BB eats those for breakfast! Superbowl madness is a distraction and I would rather the Giants get caught up in it all than the Pats (though who am I kidding - the guys already know how to keep their eye on the prize).

I do remember getting caught up in the hype of the Patriot's first superbowl back in 85/86, the lionizing of Nelson, Tippet, Lippet, Morgan, Collins and Fryar. Singing Raymond Berry's Pats to the tune of Macnamara's Band and believing it was all possible. And not just me but everyone else in the state. And then it all evaporated in what seemed like a second in the Superdome (even the opening FG was forgotten).

So I would encourage anyone from NY to enjoy the moment, feast their stars, compose their songs, Utube videos whatever......for the next 10 days. The chasm caused by missed expectations is deep!

 

[BelichickFan]

I think that explains why people think and say the penalty caused it... but I think that's an easy but false explanation. When your kicker is kicking off for touchbacks then yes a penalty has an effect, but there wasn't anything close to a touchback by us all night.

It's a bigger field to cover, it changes lots of things like the angles and how much open space the runner has to work with. Again, I'm not saying we should have allowed the TD but it's foolish to think that it doesn't change anything other than the last 15 yards.

 

[alamo]

Plus, kicking off closer might have resulted in a touchback.

Very doubtful. Never got it inside the 5. This one wasn't his shortest of the night even.

Gostkowski kicks 63 yards from NE 30 to NYG 7
Gostkowski kicks 60 yards from NE 30 to NYG 10
Gostkowski kicks 59 yards from NE 15 to NYG 26
Gostkowski kicks 60 yards from NE 30 to NYG 10
Gostkowski kicks 62 yards from NE 30 to NYG 8
Gostkowski kicks 56 yards from NE 30 to NYG 14
Gostkowski kicks 65 yards from NE 30 to NYG 5
Gostkowski kicks 59 yards from NE 30 to NYG 11

 

[alamo]

It's a bigger field to cover, it changes lots of things like the angles and how much open space the runner has to work with. Again, I'm not saying we should have allowed the TD but it's foolish to think that it doesn't change anything other than the last 15 yards.

I again don't understand how it changes the open space and the angles one bit. But we can leave it at that and disagree rather than completely hijacking this thread, maybe I'll bring this up again after I re-watch the play.

 

[Brownfan80]

But the kick wasn't any shorter than the others, it was just from the 15 to the 36 instead of from the 30 to the 11. Same distance. If timing is based on the yardline I can't imagine the Pats don't practice it just in case.

The player started at the 26. If you started most of your kick returns FROM almost the 30 yard line, you don't think you'd have a bigger chance for a TD return?