James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker (Picture)

[weswelker#83]

1mn43 left in 1st Quarter

Big Picture :
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1731/dscf0233gx3.jpg

Will safety James Butler be suspended one game for Last night illegal horse-collar tackle on Wes Welker?

and why the ref. didn't give a 15 yard penalty to NE for that illegal horse collar tackle ?


Big Picture:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2050/dscf0234mz3.jpg

 

[JDSal45]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

For it to be a penalty, you have to actually grab the shoulder pad. Its not a penalty if you grab the shirt only. I believe on the video, it appears he has the shirt only, not latching onto the shoulder pad. That isn't a penalty.

J D Sal

 

[nhpatsfan]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I agree with JDSal. It looked like a horsecollar in real time, but in hindsight it seems it was just the jersey. Good no call.

 

[Pats Fanatic]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

For it to be a penalty, you have to actually grab the shoulder pad. Its not a penalty if you grab the shirt only. I believe on the video, it appears he has the shirt only, not latching onto the shoulder pad. That isn't a penalty.

J D Sal

That is not the case anymore last year that included the back of the jersey collar. That was a penalty and he will be fined I bet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse-collar_tackle

 

[strongside]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I thought it was a good non-call. He definatly grabed the coller but held up and did not ride him down. I wouldn't want one of our defenders called on the same play.

 

[weswelker#83]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

For it to be a penalty, you have to actually grab the shoulder pad. Its not a penalty if you grab the shirt only. I believe on the video, it appears he has the shirt only, not latching onto the shoulder pad. That isn't a penalty.

J D Sal

The horse-collar is particularly dangerous due to the awkward position of the player getting tackled, who will often fall backward in a twisting motion with one or both legs trapped under the weight of his body. This is exacerbated if the player's foot gets caught in the turf and by the additional weight of the defender. Potential injuries include sprains or tears to ligaments in the knees and ankles (including the ACL), and fractures of the tibia and fibula.[4]

The ban states that a horse-collar tackle is an open-field tackle in which a defender uses the shoulder pads or jersey to immediately bring a ball carrier down.

Wiki.

 

[nhpatsfan]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I didn't know that. But what about this from the wikipedia article "if a defender begins to bring a player down by the shoulder pads but lets go before the tackle is completed, he will not be penalized"
My husband and I talked about this play as it happened last night. He said he wasn't dropped by the tackle and so it wasn't a penalty. I thought the jersey thing ruled it out, but I guess I was wrong.

 

[marty]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I thought the same thing when I saw it during game. Now that I see the pic, it looks more like he got the shirt instead, and it was a good non-call.

 

[weswelker#83]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

if safety James Butler suspended for next game , i would like to hear from coughlin for bringing his starters in last night game.

 

[i.dont.belong.here]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I came in to say the same thing as above, that it was a good tackle as long as he didn't grab the pads...but:

The first year of the ban, only two penalties were called by referees for the horse-collar tackle. Owners voted 25-7 in 2006 to expand the rule to include tackles by the back of the jersey in addition to tackles by the shoulder pads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse-collar_tackle

I guess it IS illegal after all. It's hard to blame the refs for every missed/blown call..no system is (or ever can be) perfect, I suppose.

 

[weswelker#83]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I thought the same thing when I saw it during game. Now that I see the pic, it looks more like he got the shirt instead, and it was a good non-call.

If you didn't read it , i will post it for you one more time:

The ban states that a horse-collar tackle is an open-field tackle in which a defender uses the shoulder pads or jersey to immediately bring a ball carrier down.

 

[Mxyzptlk]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I think to get a call and a penalty on it, you have to drag the player down. If I remember this play correctly, Butler mostly swung Welker to the side to tackle him. Did he actually pull him down and back, giving him the Roy Williams Special?

 

[sieglo]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I think to get a call and a penalty on it, you have to drag the player down. If I remember this play correctly, Butler mostly swung Welker to the side to tackle him. Did he actually pull him down and back, giving him the Roy Williams Special?

+1. It wasn't a horse collar.

 

[weswelker#83]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I think to get a call and a penalty on it, you have to drag the player down. If I remember this play correctly, Butler mostly swung Welker to the side to tackle him. Did he actually pull him down and back, giving him the Roy Williams Special?

I am rewatching it again on my dvr , James Butler grabbed the horse collar and and flew half circle ( 180 degres) to twist wes and put him down , still very risky play on the ball carrier .

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

The way I understand the rule... You can not pull someone down* or back* when grabbing the back of the jersey or shoulderpads. I think if you pull them sideways or towards the direction of their momentum it is not illegal. I am not 100% sure, but this is the way I interpetted the rule when I first heard the exact wording... and have since.

 

[marty]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

If you didn't read it , i will post it for you one more time:

I guess the key phrase is "immediately bringing the player down". Whether by pads or shirt, if the player is brought down immediately and violently from behind(falling backward over legs), would seem to be the criteria. Again, good non-call IMO.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

+1. It wasn't a horse collar.

I think you meant to say IMO...

The guys on NFL Total Access seemed to think it was a given it was and the refs just didn't catch it. That still picture is useless in assessing it, you would have to see the entire tackle again in context knowing he had the collar in both hands whether the pads were involved or not. Did he release before Welker started down - I know at the time I didn't think so.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

I thought it was a good non-call. He definatly grabed the coller but held up and did not ride him down. I wouldn't want one of our defenders called on the same play.

I agree, he didn't pull a Roy Williams. It was a clean tackle in my book, even if technically it COULD be called. Roy Williams might have ended Welker's season if he was tackling him there.

 

[Remix 6]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

part of the illegal horse collar is pulling someone down from there..and thank god we didnt see that sight because its a terrible one

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: James Butler's Illegal Horse Collar on Wes Welker ( Picture)

For it to be a penalty, you have to actually grab the shoulder pad. Its not a penalty if you grab the shirt only. I believe on the video, it appears he has the shirt only, not latching onto the shoulder pad. That isn't a penalty.

J D Sal

JD, that is false. They tweaked the rule this year to include take downs via the collar of the Jersey.. And Butler did have the inside of the pads.