Are the Pats using Moss to set up sucker plays for the playoffs?

[RayClay]

Anyone who's read about our former great dynasty (11 in 13), Bill Russell's Celtics, knows that there's more to winning than putting your talent straight up against the opposition.

Often, there's deception. Run the same play the same way every time except that one crucial play that decides a playoff game.

When Russell played against Chamberlain, he couldn't stop him, only contain him.

Russell was 6'9" 220, Chamberlain 7'1" 275. Chamberlain had a variety of shots and often would seem to have one shot that was unstoppable that night.

Whether it was the fade, finger roll or hook, with the game on the line, Chamberlain would go to the "money" move that had worked all night and...

swat! blocked and redirected to half court for an easy basket and the W.

Russell, knowing he couldn't stop him had intentionally overplayed. When the crucial play came Russell knew what was coming and that was all the edge he needed.

In a meaningless second half against Miami, was Belichick trying to setup the league? There were scouts from every team. He had gone to Moss (when I say he, I mean BB, McD and Brady. Anybody don't think they're on the same page by now?) in the Jets game despite coverage also.

I saw a play in the fins game where the safety's playing half way and actually leans toward, then sprints for the double teamed Moss on the right flank, with a single covered player running a post.

If we know for sure, (like Russell knew) that the safety will go for triple coverage, we are playing 10 on 8 otherwise.

Seems to me, that sets up a slight variation to the same play leading to at least one wide open receiver. Seems to me a play like that might come in handy in the post season.

Thoughts?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

If you use the play as a decoy, then great.

So far, Brady has not been doing that. And the refs seemed determined to stop Moss from catching the ball or making a play. I have seen him pass interfered with all season and somehow he is the only one that gets the penalty.

It probably would work great if Brady looks for the open receiver on those plays, which is normally a strength of his.

I would love to see Moss stretch the field and Brady run a screen play or short pass to a wide open guy in those situations.

It is okay to take shots down the field when Moss is really open, but those triple coverage plays are low probability, even with Moss on the other end. Especially with the refs not doing their job at all. I don't feel comfortable when we rely on those plays so much, and I think it is hurting our offense at this point to try to force the ball to Moss when other guys are open.

 

[shakesc]

Anyone who's read about our former great dynasty (11 in 13), Bill Russell's Celtics, knows that there's more to winning than putting your talent straight up against the opposition.

Often, there's deception. Run the same play the same way every time except that one crucial play that decides a playoff game.

When Russell played against Chamberlain, he couldn't stop him, only contain him.

Russell was 6'9" 220, Chamberlain 7'1" 275. Chamberlain had a variety of shots and often would seem to have one shot that was unstoppable that night.

Whether it was the fade, finger roll or hook, with the game on the line, Chamberlain would go to the "money" move that had worked all night and...

swat! blocked and redirected to half court for an easy basket and the W.

Russell, knowing he couldn't stop him had intentionally overplayed. When the crucial play came Russell knew what was coming and that was all the edge he needed.

In a meaningless second half against Miami, was Belichick trying to setup the league? There were scouts from every team. He had gone to Moss (when I say he, I mean BB, McD and Brady. Anybody don't think they're on the same page by now?) in the Jets game despite coverage also.

I saw a play in the fins game where the safety's playing half way and actually leans toward, then sprints for the double teamed Moss on the right flank, with a single covered player running a post.

If we know for sure, (like Russell knew) that the safety will go for triple coverage, we are playing 10 on 8 otherwise.

Seems to me, that sets up a slight variation to the same play leading to at least one wide open receiver. Seems to me a play like that might come in handy in the post season.

Thoughts?

exactly thats why i think donte stallworth will be the secret weapon in the playoffs...he is too much of a weapon not to be used in the playoffs...he has been too quiet during the regular season...brady has been trying to force it to wes and randy so much teams thing thats what they are going to do in the playoff and then BANG donte for 180 yards and 2 tds

 

[DaedalusX]

If you use the play as a decoy, then great.

So far, Brady has not been doing that. And the refs seemed determined to stop Moss from catching the ball or making a play. I have seen him pass interfered with all season and somehow he is the only one that gets the penalty.

It probably would work great if Brady looks for the open receiver on those plays, which is normally a strength of his.

I would love to see Moss stretch the field and Brady run a screen play or short pass to a wide open guy in those situations.

It is okay to take shots down the field when Moss is really open, but those triple coverage plays are low probability, even with Moss on the other end. Especially with the refs not doing their job at all. I don't feel comfortable when we rely on those plays so much, and I think it is hurting our offense at this point to try to force the ball to Moss when other guys are open.

You missed the point he is making. He's talking about using plays and down/distance/time tendencies as a decoy for the scouts and opposing coaches reviewing these games when preparing their own teams for their date with the Pats.

He's NOT talking about them using Moss to draw double or triple coverage to setup the screen and Brady failing to do so. I mean, we're 16 weeks in and I think it's pretty common knowledge now that you never leave Moss in single coverage.

I'm sure even Jessica Simpson knows that.

 

[RayClay]

If you use the play as a decoy, then great.

So far, Brady has not been doing that. And the refs seemed determined to stop Moss from catching the ball or making a play. I have seen him pass interfered with all season and somehow he is the only one that gets the penalty.

It probably would work great if Brady looks for the open receiver on those plays, which is normally a strength of his.

I would love to see Moss stretch the field and Brady run a screen play or short pass to a wide open guy in those situations.

It is okay to take shots down the field when Moss is really open, but those triple coverage plays are low probability, even with Moss on the other end. Especially with the refs not doing their job at all. I don't feel comfortable when we rely on those plays so much, and I think it is hurting our offense at this point to try to force the ball to Moss when other guys are open.

The point is, BB is a smart football mind. We had both the Jets and Miami games well under control. so we gave up a first down because we didn't use a screen play or hit an open receiver against Miami. Who cares? Did somebody think we were losing control of that game?

It's called playing chess while others play checkers.

I'd still throw to Moss in double coverage. If we can suck teams into triple coverage, the possibilities are obvious to me.

That's why you don't allow teams to take the ball out of the hands of your super star.

A weapon, or the threat of a weapon, is only effective when you use it.

 

[mavfan2390]

If so, it is a great strategy...it'll be fun in the playoffs to send Moss deep into triple coverage, and have Welker wide open in the middle of the field.

 

[NYCPatsFan]

If true, it might be a good strategy for the first couple of plays when playing the first round. The opponent, whoever it is, will attempt making some adjustments in the second half which hopefully gives us more power to use the TEs or Welker and show what we are capable of doing.

Question then is - and of course assuming that we get the W - how will the second opponent, who is by now more experienced and one of the best in the AFC, handle it?

Whatever the answer, it sure is going to make some very interesting plays during the playoff.

Gosh!! I am so friggin excited!!

GO PATS!!!!!!!

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

You missed the point he is making. He's talking about using plays and down/distance/time tendencies as a decoy for the scouts and opposing coaches reviewing these games when preparing their own teams for their date with the Pats.

He's NOT talking about them using Moss to draw double or triple coverage to setup the screen and Brady failing to do so. I mean, we're 16 weeks in and I think it's pretty common knowledge now that you never leave Moss in single coverage.

I'm sure even Jessica Simpson knows that.

I don't think I am missing the point.

So far we have not been running any decoys of that nature, and Rayclay is speculating that we will in the playoffs.

I would like to see Rayclay's speculation become reality because just throwing the ball downfield to Moss has become a low probability play lately, with a lot of the blame going to the officials.

 

[RayClay]

If true, it might be a good strategy for the first couple of plays when playing the first round. The opponent, whoever it is, will attempt making some adjustments in the second half which hopefully gives us more power to use the TEs or Welker and show what we are capable of doing.

Question then is - and of course assuming that we get the W - how will the second opponent, who is by now more experienced and one of the best in the AFC, handle it?

Whatever the answer, it sure is going to make some very interesting plays during the playoff.

Gosh!! I am so friggin excited!!

GO PATS!!!!!!!

In my mind, the intent of a play like this is to be saved for a game winner. It's that one play that makes the announcers go "how did he get so wide open"?

If you don't need it, don't use it, because obviously defenses will adjust.

I'm no talking about the usual double coverage on Moss, I'm talking about running the exact same play with Moss and a receiver running a post, but sending one of the short receivers deep right into an area you could drive a Mack truck through.

It's got to be a crucial situation, or you've wasted it.

 

[RayClay]

Well, Jessica, I don't think I am missing the point.

So far we have not been running any decoys of that nature, and Rayclay is simply speculating that we will in the playoffs.

I would like to see Rayclay's speculation become reality because just throwing the ball downfield to Moss has become a low probability play lately, with a lot of the blame going to the officials.

Like I say 5 rings, we were in control both games. Perfect opportunity to experiment with manipulating defenses.

Defenses aren't stupid, but they are afraid of looking that way by letting Moss beat them.

By exploiting that fear and slightly changing a play, we can have a guaranteed TD play. There are just so many DBs out there.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

The point is, BB is a smart football mind. We had both the Jets and Miami games well under control. so we gave up a first down because we didn't use a screen play or hit an open receiver against Miami. Who cares? Did somebody think we were losing control of that game?

It's called playing chess while others play checkers.

I'd still throw to Moss in double coverage. If we can suck teams into triple coverage, the possibilities are obvious to me.

That's why you don't allow teams to take the ball out of the hands of your super star.

A weapon, or the threat of a weapon, is only effective when you use it.

Again, if you use that play as a decoy, GREAT.

As in, I agree.

If we continue to throw the ball downfield on a wing and a pray when the refs are not going to call pass interference on anybody but Moss, than I suggest that we instead look for the open man in the playoffs and use Moss as a decoy. Using him as a decoy means that you may need to run that play a couple times to sell the play fake later in the game.

As far as trying to guess whether Belichick has the exact same train of thought as you do, I don't know. I would think that he is probably going to notice that Brady is forcing the ball to Moss a little, but I am not sure that Belichick intentionally did this to set up the team for the playoffs. Either way, the result will be the same if he uses Moss as a decoy in the playoffs.

In the Miami game, I think they where just trying to complete big plays and it didn't work.

 

[RayClay]

Again, if you use that play as a decoy, GREAT.

As in, I agree.

If we continue to throw the ball downfield on a wing and a pray when the refs are not going to call pass interference on anybody but Moss, than I suggest that we instead look for the open man in the playoffs and use Moss as a decoy. Using him as a decoy means that you may need to run that play a couple times to sell the play fake later in the game.

As far as trying to guess whether Belichick has the exact same train of thought as you do, I don't know. I would think that he is probably going to notice that Brady is forcing the ball to Moss a little, but I am not sure that Belichick intentionally did this to set up the team for the playoffs. Either way, the result will be the same if he uses Moss as a decoy in the playoffs.

In the Miami game, I think they where just trying to complete big plays and it didn't work.

I agree. Those were hardly playoff games, though.

It was really a chance for trying things without much risk. I hate to say it, but i don't think they thought Miami could rack up 4 tds or more against us.

Think about it logically. Did we need big plays in the second half against Miami? If we were worried about winning we would have been trying to run clock.

I think they'll game plan as usual in the playoffs and probably take what the D gives us more.

They're not going to allow defenses to completely stop us from going to Moss, though. His presence is too much of an advantage for us.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I agree. Those were hardly playoff games, though.

It was really a chance for trying things without much risk. I hate to say it, but i don't think they thought Miami could rack up 4 tds or more against us.

Think about it logically. Did we need big plays in the second half against Miami? If we were worried about winning we would have been trying to run clock.

I think they'll game plan as usual in the playoffs and probably take what the D gives us more.

They're not going to allow defenses to completely stop us from going to Moss, though. His presence is too much of an advantage for us.

I am not suggesting that we don't use Moss, that would be a serious mistake.

Just that particular long bomb play seems to be outliving it's usefulness as a straight up play. So it does make perfect sense to use it as a decoy in the playoffs. I don't have any way of guessing whether that was the intention in the Miami game, but at some point Belichick and McDaniels need to consider the potential of that play as a decoy versus a low probability long bomb.

Or hope the refs start to do their job, which would be a slim hope indeed.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree. Those were hardly playoff games, though.

It was really a chance for trying things without much risk. I hate to say it, but i don't think they thought Miami could rack up 4 tds or more against us.

Think about it logically. Did we need big plays in the second half against Miami? If we were worried about winning we would have been trying to run clock.

I think they'll game plan as usual in the playoffs and probably take what the D gives us more.

They're not going to allow defenses to completely stop us from going to Moss, though. His presence is too much of an advantage for us.

I am not suggesting that we don't use Moss, that would be a serious mistake.

Just that particular long bomb play seems to be outliving it's usefulness as a straight up play. So it does make perfect sense to use it as a decoy in the playoffs. I don't have any way of guessing whether that was the intention in the Miami game, but at some point Belichick and McDaniels need to consider the potential of that play as a decoy versus a low probability long bomb.

Or hope the refs start to do their job, which would be a slim hope indeed.

Merry Christmas to both of you. BB and company had a very vanilla game plan going on in that Miami game. I wouldn't read too much into the play calling, particularly in the second half. It was the equivalent of using the same 3 plays over and over on a video game.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Not for nothing, but the Miami game was over at the half and I think BB and McD just told Brady "Go ahead, goof around, have some fun and try to get a record or two". Nithing fancy, but little kid, sand lot ball that is real low percentage stuff in the pro's.

It's looked like the only one out there doing anything that even remotely trying was the Defense (and even they were only half-playing).

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Not for nothing, but the Miami game was over at the half and I think BB and McD just told Brady "Go ahead, goof around, have some fun and try to get a record or two". Nithing fancy, but little kid, sand lot ball that is real low percentage stuff in the pro's.

It's looked like the only one out there doing anything that even remotely trying was the Defense (and even they were only half-playing).

I agree. I think they left Brady in for a long time so he could try for the touchdown record, thus the lack of possession plays. Sand lot football indeed.

And I know that goes against Belichick's style, but I have a feeling BB would have liked Brady to stick it to Shula and Manning both. Drive a dagger through Polian's heart with a silly record.

It would have been nice if the refs simply did their job and threw the yellow flag on those long bombs, but I guess we can't expect proper officiating.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Anyone who's read about our former great dynasty (11 in 13), Bill Russell's Celtics, knows that there's more to winning than putting your talent straight up against the opposition.

Often, there's deception. Run the same play the same way every time except that one crucial play that decides a playoff game.

When Russell played against Chamberlain, he couldn't stop him, only contain him.

Russell was 6'9" 220, Chamberlain 7'1" 275. Chamberlain had a variety of shots and often would seem to have one shot that was unstoppable that night.

Whether it was the fade, finger roll or hook, with the game on the line, Chamberlain would go to the "money" move that had worked all night and...

swat! blocked and redirected to half court for an easy basket and the W.

Russell, knowing he couldn't stop him had intentionally overplayed. When the crucial play came Russell knew what was coming and that was all the edge he needed.

In a meaningless second half against Miami, was Belichick trying to setup the league? There were scouts from every team. He had gone to Moss (when I say he, I mean BB, McD and Brady. Anybody don't think they're on the same page by now?) in the Jets game despite coverage also.

I saw a play in the fins game where the safety's playing half way and actually leans toward, then sprints for the double teamed Moss on the right flank, with a single covered player running a post.

If we know for sure, (like Russell knew) that the safety will go for triple coverage, we are playing 10 on 8 otherwise.

Seems to me, that sets up a slight variation to the same play leading to at least one wide open receiver. Seems to me a play like that might come in handy in the post season.

Thoughts?

I think Russell wore Chamberlain down late in games because he was in phenomenal shape, much better than Wilt. Quite often, late in games, even NBA final games, Wilt took himself out because of an "injury", while Russell played on. Maybe Wilt was just exhausted. Maybe the 20,000 chicks had something to do with it. The thing about Russell was that he played near 48 minutes, or at least over 40, for many regular season games, again because of his phenomenal shape and work ethic. This is something Belichick is doing also by not resting his regulars too much, theory being if they play four quarters all the time, it'll be there in the playoffs when they need it most. As for your other premise, could be, I don't know.

 

[RayClay]

I think Russell wore Chamberlain down late in games because he was in phenomenal shape, much better than Wilt. Quite often, late in games, even NBA final games, Wilt took himself out because of an "injury", while Russell played on. Maybe Wilt was just exhausted. Maybe the 20,000 chicks had something to do with it. The thing about Russell was that he played near 48 minutes, or at least over 40, for many regular season games, again because of his phenomenal shape and work ethic. This is something Belichick is doing also by not resting his regulars too much, theory being if they play four quarters all the time, it'll be there in the playoffs when they need it most. As for your other premise, could be, I don't know.

Good theory, except it was not true. Russell did try to run opponents down but wilt might have been the best athlete, along with russell out of a great group of centers. Plus he was younger. Wilt in college, from WIKI.

"As he did at Overbrook, Chamberlain again showcased his diverse athletic talent. He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, threw the shotput 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years.[10] Another of Wilt's feats while at KU was to record a 550-pound bench press."

And what i said about Russell setting Wilt up has been verified by pretty much all including Russell and Red.

Chamberlain didn't have the heart of Russell, but i doubt he played many less minutes. Chamberlain pretty much played every minute most of his career. Russell was injured more than he was.

A quick google shows he averaged over 48 minutes a game one year, so his stamina was better than average, I'd say.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Good theory, except it was not true. Russell did try to run opponents down but wilt might have been the best athlete, along with russell out of a great group of centers. Plus he was younger. Wilt in college, from WIKI.

"As he did at Overbrook, Chamberlain again showcased his diverse athletic talent. He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, threw the shotput 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years.[10] Another of Wilt's feats while at KU was to record a 550-pound bench press."

And what i said about Russell setting Wilt up has been verified by pretty much all including Russell and Red.

Chamberlain didn't have the heart of Russell, but i doubt he played many less minutes. Chamberlain pretty much played every minute most of his career. Russell was injured more than he was.

A quick google shows he averaged over 48 minutes a game one year, so his stamina was better than average, I'd say.

How can you average more than 48? That's the length of the game.

Wilt was a great athlete, but that extra 60 pounds or so must have been tough to lug around near the end of games. Anyway, off topic here. It is for sure though that Bill will have some surprises in store for opposing teams in the playoffs.

 

[Deus Irae]

How can you average more than 48? That's the length of the game.

Wilt was a great athlete, but that extra 60 pounds or so must have been tough to lug around near the end of games. Anyway, off topic here. It is for sure though that Bill will have some surprises in store for opposing teams in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html


Chamberlain never averaged fewer than 42 minutes per game and he did, in fact, average over 48 mpg one season. He averaged 45.8 mpg over the course of his career. Russell averaged 42.3 mpg, including averaging under 40 mpg 3 times with a career high in a season of 45.2 mpg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html