OT: Meaning of...Cheating

[JR4]

It seem when people hear this word thy don't think of it a
rule violation... they think ... deception.

Cheating = Deceiving ..... PATS did not attempt to deceive anyone.

Most people I know believe Cheating means trying to get an advantage
without someone detecting that you are breaking rules.

This is why .... when people label the PATs as 'cheaters' , when
reporter after reporter (even pro PATs reporters ) refer to the
PATs video taping as cheating ..... it make me boil.

PATs did not CHEAT ... they did not hide the camera and try to
deceive anyone. The camera was in plain sight of millions of people.
It wasn't concealed. They broke a rule ... they did not deceive anyone which the word cheating implies.

Just had to vent after seeing once again so many news articles tacitly
assuming PATs cheated.

 

[SVN]

Re: OT: Meaning of ... Cheating

first iam a pats fan but i think this wordplay is a natural reaction even if its incorrect. i bet if it were another team we wouldnt jump up and down about the word cheat being thrown around loosely. sure it bothers me but with time it will pass..i hope...

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: OT: Meaning of ... Cheating

first iam a pats fan but i think this wordplay is a natural reaction even if its incorrect. i bet if it were another team we wouldnt jump up and down about the word cheat being thrown around loosely. sure it bothers me but with time it will pass..i hope...

The 'natural' wordplay is what I hope we could correct. At least, getting our local scribes to avoid using this would be a great first step.

JR4: EXCELLENT POST!! Thanks a lot!! I couldn't explain coherently why that 'cheater' label was so wrong. Your accurate explanation/insight is amazingly captured in simple terms. May I have your permission please to use your words verbatim when I explain this to others outside this forum? Thanks!

 

[upstater1]

Re: OT: Meaning of ... Cheating

first iam a pats fan but i think this wordplay is a natural reaction even if its incorrect. i bet if it were another team we wouldnt jump up and down about the word cheat being thrown around loosely. sure it bothers me but with time it will pass..i hope...

I disagree with this.

Cheating is stealing defensive signals when there is a prohibition against it. That's cheating.

The Patriots were not fined for that. Look at the actual rule they broke. To this day, there is nothing in the rules against stealing defensive signals.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Goodell has no credibility on this issue - the majority of people in the media and among fans just aren't smart enough to see it.

BB violated an NFL rule. Everyone assumes it provided him with a strategic advantage but no one to this day has been able to say what it is. Talk about guilty until proven innocent.

Goodell punishes the team because having audio and videotape of play calls supposedly "threatens the integrity of the game."

Goodell then grants NBC and other networks permission to capture the audio and video of Tom Brady's playcalling, beaming it into the TIVO of every defensive coordinator in the league.

So much for the integrity of the game. Goodell proved right there and then that his rationale for penalizing the Patriots was BS.

And if having tape of the audio and video threatens the integrity of the game, Goodell himself is guilty of undermining the game itself by allowing it.

 

[GameDay]

Re: OT: Meaning of ... Cheating

The 'natural' wordplay is what I hope we could correct. At least, getting our local scribes to avoid using this would be a great first step.

JR4: EXCELLENT POST!! Thanks a lot!! I couldn't explain coherently why that 'cheater' label was so wrong. Your accurate explanation/insight is amazingly captured in simple terms. May I have your permission please to use your words verbatim when I explain this to others outside this forum? Thanks!

Convicted felon: Gregory Taylor
Convicted felon: John Couey

John Couey: kidnaped, raped, killed (by burying alive) 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford

Gregory Taylor? a 20th century Jean Valjean: homeless, convicted of burglarizing a church pantry in Los Angeles for food because he was hungry

Both are convicted felons.

 

[madinsomniac]

What they did was seriously against the rules because the rule is set up to block teams from accessing sideline tapes while the games are going on. The Pats Staff was breaking down 2 quarters of signals and using the blitz/zone coverage cues to set the O up for premium plays late in the game.

had they followed the rules and taped the sideline (something that has been clarified by the leagues as they dont want done at all) league security officials would not have permitted access during the games to retrieve the tapes at halftime.

It takes 2 guys roughly 30+ minutes to do the analysis on the tapes so to have it ready by the 4th quarter the first quarter tapes have to be turned in at the second quarter and the second quarter has to be started at halftime.

Moreover the league confiscated radio interception and decryption equipment but only the very first press release comments on it. Any radio equipment beyond the league approved stuff is highly illegal. The fact is the cheating was worse than admitted.

Mathematical Stats addressing it :
http://www.bbnflstats.com/2007/09/belichick-and-sign-stealing.html

Having said all this, The Pats fans sem to be on board with the whole most despised team in the NFL persona, so why not embrace this too:
Take a "We are more talented, better coached team than you and we Cheat too, you guys are doomed" attitude to us fans of other teams.

I mean I embrace the fact that Gregg Lloyd and Kevin Green were Steroid junkies and loved it back in the day, cause they were gonna pound you senseless and hurt ya bad!

In truth, I understand why Goodel did what he did, but the bettors aside, having a team Like the pats around is what the league needed since the raiders went senile with Al Davis

 

[JR4]

....and we Cheat too, .....

There's that word again. I don't think any patriot ever would say
they cheated which implies deception. Break rules? .. yes but
hide a mini camera in the belly button of some undressed fan ... no.
There was no concealed camera ... it was out in the open .....
... they did not try to deceive anyone ... they broke a rule.
That is NOT cheating... that is rule breaking without deception.

Goodell should have held a press conference and made it clear to everyone.
He did say there was no unfair advantage obtained but he should have
been more clear about the thing and given a fair penalty ... not one to
appease the loud mouth public that hate the PATs success.
Goodell caved in public pressure .... he is the classic wimp.

 

[madinsomniac]

There's that word again. I don't think any patriot ever would say
they cheated which implies deception. Break rules? .. yes but
hide a mini camera in the belly button of some undressed fan ... no.
There was no concealed camera ... it was out in the open .....
... they did not try to deceive anyone ... they broke a rule.
That is NOT cheating... that is rule breaking without deception.

Goodell should have held a press conference and made it clear to everyone.
He did say there was no unfair advantage obtained but he should have
been more clear about the thing and given a fair penalty ... not one to
appease the loud mouth public that hate the PATs success.
Goodell caved in public pressure .... he is the classic wimp.

Cheating is breaking the rules to intentionally get an advantage.
The Pats Knew what they were doing.
They were told to stop on multiple occasions
they knew the rules,
There was in fact a memo specifically outlining this and calls between the league and the Pats when they were previously caught
they got an advantage. statistically the numbers were far outside what they should have been if belichick were simply the smartest and luckiest coach of all time.

Bring this before a non football fan with an ounce of logic and they will conclude it was cheating

 

[JR4]

Cheating is breaking the rules to intentionally get an advantage.
The Pats Knew what they were doing.
They were told to stop on multiple occasions
they knew the rules,
There was in fact a memo specifically outlining this and calls between the league and the Pats when they were previously caught
they got an advantage. statistically the numbers were far outside what they should have been if belichick were simply the smartest and luckiest coach of all time.

Bring this before a non football fan with an ounce of logic and they will conclude it was cheating

you are wrong .... there is the intent to deceive in the meaning of cheat.

when a player breaks a rule on the field you don't say he cheated.
When a line man intensionally holds an opponent, breaking the rules,
you don't say he "cheated" ... He broke the rule. But in fact if he
did it intensionally, with hopes not to be caught then you could say
he cheated which would be more accurate that saying PATs cheated
with a camera placed in front of millions of people with NO intention to
deceive.
Probably your hate for the PATs prevents you from making or being
willing to make this distinction.

 

[aluminum seats]

People will say what they say. Whatever. It's illegal to go 56 mpg in a 55 mph zone, right? Best to let it go, here at least.

 

[bpeter17]

so if my 7 year old niece blatantly copies off someone sitting next to her during a test - and doesn't try to hide what she is doing, she isn't cheating?

ok.

 

[stcjones]

Goodell has no credibility on this issue - the majority of people in the media and among fans just aren't smart enough to see it.

BB violated an NFL rule. Everyone assumes it provided him with a strategic advantage but no one to this day has been able to say what it is. Talk about guilty until proven innocent.

Goodell punishes the team because having audio and videotape of play calls supposedly "threatens the integrity of the game."

Goodell then grants NBC and other networks permission to capture the audio and video of Tom Brady's playcalling, beaming it into the TIVO of every defensive coordinator in the league.

So much for the integrity of the game. Goodell proved right there and then that his rationale for penalizing the Patriots was BS.

And if having tape of the audio and video threatens the integrity of the game, Goodell himself is guilty of undermining the game itself by allowing it.

Good points......the fact of the matter (ad nauseum) again is that EVERYONE is doing this "cheating" in one form or another!!! Be it using binoculars to catch the signals and then writing them down, whether it be buying audiotape/videotape from a source for the purpose of stealing signals, or some other approaches......THEY ALL DO IT.....and every friggin one of these hypercritical bastids that are coaches, media a-holes....etc ....ALL KNOW IT!!!

But they have chosen to throw halo's over their heads and all gang up on BB.....WHY? Because they are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of what he has been able to accomplish...and continues to mystify them,........So they grab at any straw they can to try to explain their own inefficiency and failures......Pathetic........

PS......I hope Tom Jackson gets what is coming to him someday.........a-hole!

 

[stcjones]

so if my 7 year old niece blatantly copies off someone sitting next to her during a test - and doesn't try to hide what she is doing, she isn't cheating?

ok.

Not if the person next to her is blatantly copying off your neice's test as well.....do you get it Pete? Everyone in the classroom is "cheating" then.....because unless you are braindead or naive....All of the honest coaches, former coaches etc.....will tell you that this sh## goes on EVERYDAY....throughout the league......!!!! GO PATS!!!!

 

[madinsomniac]

you are wrong .... there is the intent to deceive in the meaning of cheat.

when a player breaks a rule on the field you don't say he cheated.
When a line man intensionally holds an opponent, breaking the rules,
you don't say he "cheated" ... He broke the rule. But in fact if he
did it intensionally, with hopes not to be caught then you could say
he cheated which would be more accurate that saying PATs cheated
with a camera placed in front of millions of people with NO intention to
deceive.
Probably your hate for the PATs prevents you from making or being
willing to make this distinction.

Well lets look at the dictionary definition: the first definition concurs with what you argue, the second states clearly enough:

v. intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at c

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating

So the Patriots, by this definition, did cheat. It was deliberate, it was against the rules

 

[Pats726]

What they did was seriously against the rules because the rule is set up to block teams from accessing sideline tapes while the games are going on. The Pats Staff was breaking down 2 quarters of signals and using the blitz/zone coverage cues to set the O up for premium plays late in the game.

Excuse me?? What proof of any kind do you have that that was what they were doing?? Start with teh facts Walso...unless you have proof that is just a fantasy in your head...

had they followed the rules and taped the sideline (something that has been clarified by the leagues as they dont want done at all) league security officials would not have permitted access during the games to retrieve the tapes at halftime.

It takes 2 guys roughly 30+ minutes to do the analysis on the tapes so to have it ready by the 4th quarter the first quarter tapes have to be turned in at the second quarter and the second quarter has to be started at halftime.

Moreover the league confiscated radio interception and decryption equipment but only the very first press release comments on it. Any radio equipment beyond the league approved stuff is highly illegal. The fact is the cheating was worse than admitted.

Mathematical Stats addressing it :
http://www.bbnflstats.com/2007/09/belichick-and-sign-stealing.html

Again, you are living in a fantasy world..back up your facts???

Having said all this, The Pats fans sem to be on board with the whole most despised team in the NFL persona, so why not embrace this too:
Take a "We are more talented, better coached team than you and we Cheat too, you guys are doomed" attitude to us fans of other teams.

I mean I embrace the fact that Gregg Lloyd and Kevin Green were Steroid junkies and loved it back in the day, cause they were gonna pound you senseless and hurt ya bad!

In truth, I understand why Goodel did what he did, but the bettors aside, having a team Like the pats around is what the league needed since the raiders went senile with Al Davis

What Goodell has done is unfair totally...There have been allegations in Sando's column of teams finding a way around the 15 second blackout period...which is FAR MORE against the rules and cheating...and Goodell has NOT looked into that practice a bit...Neither has he looked into teh piped in crowd noise which is ILLEGAL and a larger problem...Until Goodell looks at those..he basically is full of BS and basically not even keeping up with his pronouncement of fairness....

 

[onegameatatime]

Well lets look at the dictionary definition: the first definition concurs with what you argue, the second states clearly enough:

v. intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at c

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating

So the Patriots, by this definition, did cheat. It was deliberate, it was against the rules

BY this definition, deliberately holding would be "cheating."

Bottom line is that the thing people think of when they think of cheating in this case -- stealing signs -- is NOT and never has been ILLEGAL.

 

[onegameatatime]

What they did was seriously against the rules because the rule is set up to block teams from accessing sideline tapes while the games are going on. The Pats Staff was breaking down 2 quarters of signals and using the blitz/zone coverage cues to set the O up for premium plays late in the game.

had they followed the rules and taped the sideline (something that has been clarified by the leagues as they dont want done at all) league security officials would not have permitted access during the games to retrieve the tapes at halftime.

It takes 2 guys roughly 30+ minutes to do the analysis on the tapes so to have it ready by the 4th quarter the first quarter tapes have to be turned in at the second quarter and the second quarter has to be started at halftime.

1. It makes little sense that someone could coordinate the tape with the other views that would be needed to coordinate.

2. I have seen no allegation that this was ever done.

3. If Mangini or any other coach thought the Pats were doing this, wouldn't the smart thing to do would be to deke the other side with false signals? Would that not be much MORE effective than repoting them?

4. Sign stealing is not and never has been illegal.

5. Directing a camera on then other sideline is not illegal, unless it is in one of certain locations.

6. I would most expect a Steeler fan to most want to find solace after losing twice at home in AFC Championship games in the last 6 years.

 

[madinsomniac]

Good points......the fact of the matter (ad nauseum) again is that EVERYONE is doing this "cheating" in one form or another!!! Be it using binoculars to catch the signals and then writing them down, whether it be buying audiotape/videotape from a source for the purpose of stealing signals, or some other approaches......THEY ALL DO IT.....and every friggin one of these hypercritical bastids that are coaches, media a-holes....etc ....ALL KNOW IT!!!

But they have chosen to throw halo's over their heads and all gang up on BB.....WHY? Because they are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of what he has been able to accomplish...and continues to mystify them,........So they grab at any straw they can to try to explain their own inefficiency and failures......Pathetic........

PS......I hope Tom Jackson gets what is coming to him someday.........a-hole!

it not entirely true. there are roughly eleven franchises rumored right now to specifically look for signals in some way or other from the sidelines (jets are 1 of em too). throughout history many many teams have done this, I mean Al davis really did bug locker rooms and sidelines, but really BB was getting over the top on it. the league buried much of what they took because they knew that if it was all researched the credibility of the league would be comprimised.

BTW I heard that Kraft, a very respectable man, was and is furious over this, which is why I think they will never do it again. Its like when Dan Rooney found out cowher signed a guy off of waivers to pump him for info and made sure it would never happen again.

In any case, it wont matter, belichick is only coaching two more years at most. Rumor had it he was seriously concidering going out after this year if they win the SB undefeated and as many Vets retire and Moss leaves, and Brady's shoulder really does need offseason surgery.
It kind of makes sense because just like James Brown did, quitting early after a huge achievement always leaves the what if possibility open and increases you chances of being called the best ever.


PS. I dont know if any Boston paper has commented on this, but I have read in print opinions from several HOF voters that they will never vote for BB because of this. I remember Ed Bouchette was one of them, but there were like 5 or 6 that have said it to date. I think he deserves it regardless, but it might be worth researching

 

[onegameatatime]

PS. I dont know if any Boston paper has commented on this, but I have read in print opinions from several HOF voters that they will never vote for BB because of this. I remember Ed Bouchette was one of them, but there were like 5 or 6 that have said it to date. I think he deserves it regardless, but it might be worth researching

What's really sad, and unfortunately illuminating about the nature of the media, is how little people have tried to understand the facts, and choose to assume way too much.