OT: Dr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

[SVN]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/11/29/williams/index.html
interesting..

 

[sieglo]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Good for Z to point it out. It seemed clear to me as well and was discussed on this board. It was a disgusting play in a generally disgusting game. The NFL needs to come down hard on this type of thing.

 

[shmessy]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

I can't stand the Steelers as much as the next guy, but I have some questions about whether that was intentional or not.

If one watches the replay, Timmons is coming down after hurdling #76 OL for the Phins. While in the air, his left leg is way up. He comes down awkwardly and has to change direction immediately when he sees the ball come out.

I can see why Dr. Z was fooled if he was looking at the second replay (between seconds 33-41), because it only shows the foot coming down and pushing off in VERY slow motion.

If he watched the FIRST replay (between seconds 24 and 32) he would have seen clearly that it was inadvertant and merely the landing of a hurdle.

The real time play at the beginning shows this.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gQ13Sy52bQE

IMHO, there is no evil intent there.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

I don't think intent is even important.

A cleated player chose to hurdle another. In my mind, when you do this the onus is on you to make sure you have somewhere to land. Saying "oops, I didn't mean to land on him" isn't good enough. My response is "then you shouldn't have jumped up in the air you idiot."

Watching that link (thank you shmessy) it looks like his teammate fell where he intended to step, at which point he chose to step on Williams rather than 1) step on his teammate, or 2) fall to the ground himself rather than stepping at all.

He wanted to pursue the loose ball so he chose to step. He unnecessarily put himself up in the air in the first place. While he might not have intended to hurt Williams, he did and he should be held accountable.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

I don't think intent is even important.

A cleated player chose to hurdle another. In my mind, when you do this the onus is on you to make sure you have somewhere to land. Saying "oops, I didn't mean to land on him" isn't good enough. My response is "then you shouldn't have jumped up in the air you idiot.".

That is ridiculous. This is a high stakes game where players are paid millions to win. Their jobs, coaches jobs, etc. are on the line. To have to think "should I make this jump for the first down, or may I incidentally land on a defender with my spikes" is ridiculous.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Second guessing someone in a high adrenalin, full contact sport for specious reasons is futile. Only clearly obvious intent (and I don't know how to determine that unambiguously) should result in punishment. Yes, I'm concerned for players safety and livelihood but it is a contact game where decisions are made in tenths of seconds.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Second guessing someone in a high adrenalin, full contact sport for specious reasons is futile. Only clearly obvious intent (and I don't know how to determine that unambiguously) should result in punishment. Yes, I'm concerned for players safety and livelihood but it is a contact game where decisions are made in tenths of seconds.

Perfect reasoning.

 

[seven]

He clearly extends his leg out to the left.
If he was losing his balance,slipped somehow,his upper body would fall over that way.
That just does not happen.

The thing is,I cannot recall ever seeing this before.
Some feet in close grappling,twisties while tangled,but I do not recall ever seeing this before?

Fines for not tucking the socks in,
fines for wearing the wrong color shirt on the sideline...



Deciding intent is BS.
You don't stomp down on guys.

wilfork for example.
By accident or not,Just don't do it.
Makes me nervous.

Who is in charge?

 

[sebman2112]

If you're watching that replay and coming away thinking it wasn't intentional than you're missing something. Watch Timmons face, he's looking down at his foot as he steps on Ricky, and he knew where his foot was going.

Now when I say it was intentional I simply mean that he intentionally stepped on Ricky Williams. I'm not saying there was any intend to cause injury though.

I should also say that I thought it was intentional when I watched the game live, but unless Timmons actually meant to cause injury than I don't think it's a big deal. Guys get stepped on all the time, it's part of football.

 

[Rawky77]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

I can't stand the Steelers as much as the next guy, but I have some questions about whether that was intentional or not.

If one watches the replay, Timmons is coming down after hurdling #76 OL for the Phins. While in the air, his left leg is way up. He comes down awkwardly and has to change direction immediately when he sees the ball come out.

I can see why Dr. Z was fooled if he was looking at the second replay (between seconds 33-41), because it only shows the foot coming down and pushing off in VERY slow motion.

If he watched the FIRST replay (between seconds 24 and 32) he would have seen clearly that it was inadvertant and merely the landing of a hurdle.

The real time play at the beginning shows this.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=gQ13Sy52bQE

IMHO, there is no evil intent there.

Your explanation does not account for the Steeler's player lifting His leg as high a possible, which in no way is called for as Ricky is laying off too his left and not in his line to the ball, and then driving it into Ricky's shoulder with his full weight.....Location of the two players precludes the need to hurdle Ricky's prostrate body....the Steeler's player had to leave his direct line to the loose ball to stab Ricky with his cleats He was not hurdling a prostrate player he was jacking his leg to deliver maximum force.

 

[363839]

OT from the OP but in the article you link us to, there was another snippet about slowing down the Pats offense which is further down the column. He states the usual about jamming Randy at the line blah blah...
...but then he says a team should use a whole new strategy from what they had used all year so BB couldn't watch the film....
Anybody else see the lunacy in this?

 

[Oswlek]

If you're watching that replay and coming away thinking it wasn't intentional than you're missing something. Watch Timmons face, he's looking down at his foot as he steps on Ricky, and he knew where his foot was going.

Now when I say it was intentional I simply mean that he intentionally stepped on Ricky Williams. I'm not saying there was any intend to cause injury though.

I should also say that I thought it was intentional when I watched the game live, but unless Timmons actually meant to cause injury than I don't think it's a big deal. Guys get stepped on all the time, it's part of football.

Yeah, Timmons clearly sees what he is doing, lifts his leg extra high and stomps down on Williams' back.

BTW, until I saw the clip is was totally in the "how can you judge intent in the heat of the moment" corner, but that one was patently obvious.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Your explanation does not account for the Steeler's player lifting His leg as high a possible, which in no way is called for as Ricky is laying off too his left and not in his line to the ball, and then driving it into Ricky's shoulder with his full weight.....Location of the two players precludes the need to hurdle Ricky's prostrate body....the Steeler's player had to leave his direct line to the loose ball to stab Ricky with his cleats He was not hurdling a prostrate player he was jacking his leg to deliver maximum force.

I saw the exact same thing.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

I can't stand the Steelers as much as the next guy, but I have some questions about whether that was intentional or not.

If one watches the replay, Timmons is coming down after hurdling #76 OL for the Phins. While in the air, his left leg is way up. He comes down awkwardly and has to change direction immediately when he sees the ball come out.

I can see why Dr. Z was fooled if he was looking at the second replay (between seconds 33-41), because it only shows the foot coming down and pushing off in VERY slow motion.

If he watched the FIRST replay (between seconds 24 and 32) he would have seen clearly that it was inadvertant and merely the landing of a hurdle.

The real time play at the beginning shows this.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gQ13Sy52bQE

IMHO, there is no evil intent there.

Shmessy - I gotta disagree with you. What I was was that Timmons DOES purposely plant his cleat into Williams back. There is no other reason for Timmons leg to be outstretched like that. Particularly when you look and see that there is empty field right next to Williams.. Timmons hurdled the guy with the intent of cleating Williams. That's what it looks like to me..

 

[FrontSeven]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Perfect reasoning.

Perfectly reasonable reasoning.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

That is ridiculous. This is a high stakes game where players are paid millions to win. Their jobs, coaches jobs, etc. are on the line. To have to think "should I make this jump for the first down, or may I incidentally land on a defender with my spikes" is ridiculous.

This wasn't a RB, it was a pursuing defender. But even in that situation the RB usually dives rather than hurdling. I don't think it's unfair to expect a very heavy man with spikes on his feet to realize that he can hurt someone if he lands feet first on them.

Second guessing someone in a high adrenalin, full contact sport for specious reasons is futile. Only clearly obvious intent (and I don't know how to determine that unambiguously) should result in punishment. Yes, I'm concerned for players safety and livelihood but it is a contact game where decisions are made in tenths of seconds.

We all make split-second decisions in our lives. Just because one guy makes his on a football field doesn't mean he should be excused for his mistakes while I have to suffer mine. I'm not saying the guy should go to jail. I'm saying he should be fined or suspended for a game.

He jumped feet first into a scrum (inherently dangerous). A guy got hurt. Feel free to argue that the jump wasn't inherently dangerous or that it doesn't warrant punishment, but please don't bring the weak "he's a football player and not responsible for his decisions made under the duress of a game" argument to the table.

*edit* and what exactly is specious in my reasoning? My post was straightforward and substantive. I'm left to assume that you simply don't like my reasoning (while not understanding the meaning of the word).

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Intentionally jumping onto guys is more likely to get you an ankle sprain and weeks out than not. I say it was a split-second mistake.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Intentionally jumping onto guys is more likely to get you an ankle sprain and weeks out than not. I say it was a split-second mistake.

There is absolutely no way you can actually watch that replay and come to that conclusion. I have to assume that you are going by your memory of the play.

From the :24 mark to the :29 mark, you can see Timmons approach the play, then while hurdling an OL he looks down and see Williams on the ground, intentionally lifts the leg closest to Ricky higher than he needs to and shove it into his back. Timmons' eyes stay on Ricky the entire time until he lands the shot and then he looks towards the scrum.

I don't mean to be a jackass or anything, but it is clear as day that it is intentional. There is absolutely no room for dispute on this one.

Edit: He doesn't jump on to him. He clearly resets his balance after avoiding the OL and then stomps on the guy. If you watch closely, you can see Timmons set his balance on his right leg so it isn't as if he stumbles into Williams either.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

Perfect reasoning.

MD, I was in your corner until I saw the :24-:29 of the replay. There is no split second decision. Timmons clearly lifts his leg more than he needs to and shoves it into Ricky's back. This isn't a case of a guy hurdling another and then happening to land on another. This is a case of a guy taking advantage of sloppy conditions and people on the ground to get an extra shot in there.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: OTr Z-Ricky Williams victim of dirty play

There is absolutely no way you can actually watch that replay and come to that conclusion. I have to assume that you are going by your memory of the play.

From the :24 mark to the :29 mark, you can see Timmons approach the play, then while hurdling an OL he looks down and see Williams on the ground, intentionally lifts the leg closest to Ricky higher than he needs to and shove it into his back. Timmons' eyes stay on Ricky the entire time until he lands the shot and then he looks towards the scrum.

I don't mean to be a jackass or anything, but it is clear as day that it is intentional. There is absolutely no room for dispute on this one.

Edit: He doesn't jump on to him. He clearly resets his balance after avoiding the OL and then stomps on the guy.

No you are correct in that I AM relying on memory and speaking in general. No offense taken.