Patriot SB record without Adam V

[sarge]

Lately I have read some reporters who have come out and said the Pats would not have won a single SB without Adam V. I certainly believe that Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL. But at the sametime, I believe it is a bit of an extreme stretch and ridiculously ignorant to make the statement that the Pats would have none of the Superbowls without him.

Now undoubtedly, I would not have made this thread had Adam V not signed with the enemy. A lot of this is just me trying to make light of the situation, and I don't deny that in the least. Again, Benedict Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL, and I don't deny that.

The statement I have the problem with is in saying that the Pats wouldn't have won any Super Bowls without Adam.

So I thought I would clarify this a little.

Probably would not have won the first. I believe most kickers would have missed the 45 yarder Adam hit in the final minute. Not only the distance and the snow, but the pressure of knowing the season is over if it is missed.

But to be fair, Janakowski also hit a 45 yard field goal in that same game. And it went through with room to spare. And he hit another from 38 yards. That is not to say that he would have hit the 45 yarder at the end had the roles been reversed. But it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility that there exists a kicker other then Adam V who also would have made that kick. Regardless, that kick coupled with the last second FG in the SB, I put the odds extremely low to remote that someone else would have made all those kicks.

Most likely would have won the second. This is certainly not to take a swipe at Adam, even though nothing would please me more at the present time. But let us not forget that the Pats needed that last second field goal due in large part to Adam missing 2 very makeable field goals earlier in the game. He was 33% on the day. Indoors no less. I understand one of them was blocked. I can't remember if that was because the kick was low or not. Also, I think there is a decent chance that a lot of other kickers would have made the last 41 yard kick indoors. In any case, had that been missed, the game would have went into overtime, where at that point, whoever won the coin toss would have probably won the game!

Absolutely would have won the second It was a freaking 22 yarder, the Pats were already ahead and it put them up by 10, plenty of time left. Basically an extra point. Any kicker would have made that!

Again, I obviously would not have even brought this up had he not signed with the enemy. The biggest reason I am doing this is to try to put a good spin on a crappy situation. But I don't think any of my assesment is unreasonable!

So in my final assesment, I believe the Pats would at a minimum, still have 2 SB wins without Adam! I highly doubt they would have won the first though, as the other kicker would have had to make the 45 yarder in the snow or the season was over, and a 48 yarder as uhumm(2 seconds left) time expired in the SB!

 

[Brick]

Why do we need to knock AV as a player when there is NO denying he was clutch. The FACT is he won the 1st SB with the last second kick, ditto for #2. Their 3rd SB victory was won by 3 points. To spin it otherwise is as accurate as a Venderjerk playoff FG attempt.

I think some here feel compelled to put a negative spin on the Pats who have left in order to convince themselves it won't matter in the W-L column next year.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Why do we need to knock AV as a player when there is NO denying he was clutch. The FACT is he won the 1st SB with the last second kick, ditto for #2. Their 3rd SB victory was won by 3 points. To spin it otherwise is as accurate as a Venderjerk playoff FG attempt.

I think some here feel compelled to put a negative spin on the Pats who have left in order to convince themselves it won't matter in the W-L column next year.

Finding another kicker with decent overall statistics will not be hard.

Our challenge moving forward is finding one that we feel can be the clutch guy that AV was. We've found ourselves in a LOT of clutch situations and Adam has generally come through.

Other teams in clutch situations have found that their kickers - while statistically sound - have NOT come through.

Adam is gone - so the question is where are we going to find his replacement.

The clutch kicker fits a psychological profile more than one revealed by general football kicking statistics. I think the place to find his long term replacement will be among the young, brash, fearless ranks of UFAs.

College and CFL guys who have experience dealing with cold weather, swirling winds, and who ultimately have no fear as they have nothing to lose in being called into play for a team like the Patriots. We have volume working in our favor here, with no limit to the number of guys we can try out.

Many of the veterans bring with them a lot of psychological baggage, which has caused them to be FAs in the first place, and they will know they have VERY big shoes to fill with VERY high expectations. And there's a very limited number of them around period.

I have to think there's a few guys the Pats already have their eyes on among young UFAs and Candadian players.

 

[sarge]

Why do we need to knock AV as a player when there is NO denying he was clutch. The FACT is he won the 1st SB with the last second kick, ditto for #2. Their 3rd SB victory was won by 3 points. To spin it otherwise is as accurate as a Venderjerk playoff FG attempt.

I think some here feel compelled to put a negative spin on the Pats who have left in order to convince themselves it won't matter in the W-L column next year.

Please read the post before you reply, because it is clear you didn't!

your comment

Why do we need to knock AV as a player when there is NO denying he was clutch.

What I posted

I certainly believe that Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL

So you imply I am denying he is clutch, and I actually posted that he was the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL.

And where did I nock him as a player???

Again, the staw man falicy.

Instead of arguing with the actual points, you make up some fictitous points that are easy to argue with!

So I guess you don't think we would have won a single SB without him?


Perhaps you missed these little bits

I certainly believe that Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL

Now undoubtedly, I would not have made this thread had Adam V not signed with the enemy. A lot of this is just me trying to make light of the situation, and I don't deny that in the least. Again, Benedict Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL, and I don't deny that.

I believe most kickers would have missed the 45 yarder Adam hit in the final minute. Not only the distance and the snow, but the pressure of knowing the season is over if it is missed.

I put the odds extremely low to remote that someone else would have made all those kicks.

 

[maverick4]

re

Interesting thoughts, but what's the point?

Even if we say the Pats couldn't have won any of the 3 without Vinatieri, how does that in any way justify what the Pats were willing to pay Vinatieri for the future?

Managing a salary cap is not 'what have you done for me lately' and paying for the past, but 'what will you do for me in the future'.

.

 

[arrellbee]

Lately I have read some reporters who have come out and said the Pats would not have won a single SB without Adam V. I certainly believe that Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL. But at the sametime, I believe it is a bit of an extreme stretch and ridiculously ignorant to make the statement that the Pats would have none of the Superbowls without him.

Now undoubtedly, I would not have made this thread had Adam V not signed with the enemy. A lot of this is just me trying to make light of the situation, and I don't deny that in the least. Again, Benedict Adam is the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL, and I don't deny that.

The statement I have the problem with is in saying that the Pats wouldn't have won any Super Bowls without Adam.

So I thought I would clarify this a little.

Probably would not have won the first. I believe most kickers would have missed the 45 yarder Adam hit in the final minute. Not only the distance and the snow, but the pressure of knowing the season is over if it is missed.

But to be fair, Janakowski also hit a 45 yard field goal in that same game. And it went through with room to spare. And he hit another from 38 yards. That is not to say that he would have hit the 45 yarder at the end had the roles been reversed. But it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility that there exists a kicker other then Adam V who also would have made that kick. Regardless, that kick coupled with the last second FG in the SB, I put the odds extremely low to remote that someone else would have made all those kicks.

Most likely would have won the second. This is certainly not to take a swipe at Adam, even though nothing would please me more at the present time. But let us not forget that the Pats needed that last second field goal due in large part to Adam missing 2 very makeable field goals earlier in the game. He was 33% on the day. Indoors no less. I understand one of them was blocked. I can't remember if that was because the kick was low or not. Also, I think there is a decent chance that a lot of other kickers would have made the last 41 yard kick indoors. In any case, had that been missed, the game would have went into overtime, where at that point, whoever won the coin toss would have probably won the game!

Absolutely would have won the second It was a freaking 22 yarder, the Pats were already ahead and it put them up by 10, plenty of time left. Basically an extra point. Any kicker would have made that!

Again, I obviously would not have even brought this up had he not signed with the enemy. The biggest reason I am doing this is to try to put a good spin on a crappy situation. But I don't think any of my assesment is unreasonable!

So in my final assesment, I believe the Pats would at a minimum, still have 2 SB wins without Adam! I highly doubt they would have won the first though, as the other kicker would have had to make the 45 yarder in the snow or the season was over, and a 48 yarder as uhumm(2 seconds left) time expired in the SB!

Thanks for the very meaningful perspectives.

 

[Brick]

Please read the post before you reply, because it is clear you didn't!

your comment

What I posted



So you imply I am denying he is clutch, and I actually posted that he was the most clutch kicker in the history of the NFL.

And where did I nock him as a player???

Again, the staw man falicy.

Instead of arguing with the actual points, you make up some fictitous points that are easy to argue with!

So I guess you don't think we would have won a single SB without him?


Perhaps you missed these little bits

Sarge I agree with you, my post was poorly worded. My AV knocking comment was directed at other Vinatieri threads...there are so many I'm getting them mixed up.

 

[Bella*chick]

So, are these writers basically saying NO OTHER kicker in the league could have made the kicks Adam made in the Superbowl?

I'm not denying Adam's kicks were clutch, but the only way you can say with any certainty that we would have lost all those Superbowls without Adam V. is if we didn't have Adam V. or ANY kicker on the team.

He was a clutch kicker, maybe the most in NFL history, but he is not the ONLY clutch kicker the NFL has ever seen. Good grief.

 

[rabthepat]

Adam

Love Adam...but I have a hard time attributing SB wins and losses to individual players. Sure Adam kicked the winning FG in SB 36 but rewatch that last drive and look at some of the plays made by other players. Like JR Redman for example and the offensive line and Troy Brown. All it took to blow that drive was a fumble, dropped pass or even a holding call and Adam is a footnote in SB36 history.

 

[sarge]

Sarge I agree with you, my post was poorly worded. My AV knocking comment was directed at other Vinatieri threads...there are so many I'm getting them mixed up.

We're good

And to be honest, after I posted my response i remembered that I had participated in other threads going off on Adam and was really hoping you weren't going to quote me on any of those

So since I fessed up, please don't do it now!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think what a lot of you choose to dismiss is the possibility that had he not made that kick, not to mention a few other game winners along the way, there might not have been a dynasty to be built. We went 9-7 the following season, and had we not advanced past that first playoff game in 2001, Bill might not have been able to cut the cord with Bledsoe because support for Tom was not yet across the board as some here like to forget.

So it's entirely possible AV played the single most crucial role is insuring that transition got to happen. He also provided something Peyton Manning didn't have in those years - faith in a PK that allowed Brady to operate as if he didn't need to do it all - he just had to keep them close and then get them close enough for Adam to seal the deal. That Vanderjerk came up small in similar situations though under far better conditions on more than one occasion cost the Colts dearly against us, and he was purportedly the most accurate kicker of all.

BTW - like the kick that won the Snowbowl, Janakowski's earlier kicks occurred at a time when the weather was not nearly as bad. Game conditions were at their absolute worst when Adam attempted the 45 yarder to tie - even on the TV feed you could not see through what at that moment were blizzard conditions.

And had he not made the kick in XXXVI, we were a coin toss away from going home empty. The Rams had the momentum and the greatest show on turf had found a rhythm against a defense that was gassed...which is why BB didn't listen to Madden's sage advice that they play it safe and go for OT. They had a young QB who trusted his PK and knew he didn't have to do it all, he just had to get them close enough for their money kicker to seal the deal.

No Snowbowl W, no Superbowl. No Superbowl - maybe no Brady in 2002 or Belichick beyond 2002.

 

[sdaniels7114]

I dunno, AV's kickoffs were kinda short, especially at the end. Maybe his absence means the other team starts their drives further out and we win going away?

What if we had a lousy kicker for 36 so Brady just decided to take 6 on that crucial drive? Football is mostly a matter of imposing your will or not, IMO and Brady has shown a remarkable ability in imposing his will over the years.

I sure wouldn't wanna do it over; but I see possible scenarios where AV's absence makes the legend of the Pats bigger, not smaller.

 

[spacecrime]

I thought this thread and its cousins died out a year ago.

Av was not a chump and not a god.

He made the best kick in the history of the NFL in the Snow Bowl, and in the first Superbowl, he made a kick that many but not all kickers would make.

He missed two kicks in the second superbowl but made his third kick at the end.

His kicking a late FG in the third superbowl put us up by 10 and allowed us to sit back on McNabb.

Against Denver, his missed FG that would have brought it back to a one possession game put a nail in our coffin that year. No, we didn't lose that playoff game because of him, but neither did we win the others because of him except for the Snow Bowl. Let's keep it in perspective.

In 2007 he is 19 for 25 with a long of 39 yards. Good but not godlike. (Gostkowski 2007: 16 for 19, long of 45)

In his entire playoff career, he is 23 for 31. Good but not godlike. His rep will always be for the Snow Bowl kick, and to a lesser degree the XXXVI kick. (Gostkowski playoffs: 8 for 8)

Anyway, he is a Colt now. I'll always remember the Snow Bowl kick, but his current stats don't make me want to trade Gostkowski for him straight up. We are right now better off without him.

Let it die.

 

[Gopats!!!]

av was a clutch kicker, but it is foolish to think he is the only kicker in the nfl that could have made those kicks.

He was a great kicker, but there is no need to inflate his value.

 

[RayClay]

I think what a lot of you choose to dismiss is the possibility that had he not made that kick, not to mention a few other game winners along the way, there might not have been a dynasty to be built. We went 9-7 the following season, and had we not advanced past that first playoff game in 2001, Bill might not have been able to cut the cord with Bledsoe because support for Tom was not yet across the board as some here like to forget.

So it's entirely possible AV played the single most crucial role is insuring that transition got to happen. He also provided something Peyton Manning didn't have in those years - faith in a PK that allowed Brady to operate as if he didn't need to do it all - he just had to keep them close and then get them close enough for Adam to seal the deal. That Vanderjerk came up small in similar situations though under far better conditions on more than one occasion cost the Colts dearly against us, and he was purportedly the most accurate kicker of all.

BTW - like the kick that won the Snowbowl, Janakowski's earlier kicks occurred at a time when the weather was not nearly as bad. Game conditions were at their absolute worst when Adam attempted the 45 yarder to tie - even on the TV feed you could not see through what at that moment were blizzard conditions.

And had he not made the kick in XXXVI, we were a coin toss away from going home empty. The Rams had the momentum and the greatest show on turf had found a rhythm against a defense that was gassed...which is why BB didn't listen to Madden's sage advice that they play it safe and go for OT. They had a young QB who trusted his PK and knew he didn't have to do it all, he just had to get them close enough for their money kicker to seal the deal.

No Snowbowl W, no Superbowl. No Superbowl - maybe no Brady in 2002 or Belichick beyond 2002.

Then again, if Chuck Sullivan hadn't promoted the Jackson tour and lost a fortune, Billy wouldn't have been forced to sell and the labyrinth ownership situations leading to the availability of the Patriots when Kraft was ready would not have likely occurred.

Was Don King as responsible as Vinatieri for the dynasty?

 

[frankiesfly]

Finding another kicker with decent overall statistics will not be hard.

Our challenge moving forward is finding one that we feel can be the clutch guy that AV was. We've found ourselves in a LOT of clutch situations and Adam has generally come through.

Other teams in clutch situations have found that their kickers - while statistically sound - have NOT come through.

Adam is gone - so the question is where are we going to find his replacement.

The clutch kicker fits a psychological profile more than one revealed by general football kicking statistics. I think the place to find his long term replacement will be among the young, brash, fearless ranks of UFAs.

College and CFL guys who have experience dealing with cold weather, swirling winds, and who ultimately have no fear as they have nothing to lose in being called into play for a team like the Patriots. We have volume working in our favor here, with no limit to the number of guys we can try out.

Many of the veterans bring with them a lot of psychological baggage, which has caused them to be FAs in the first place, and they will know they have VERY big shoes to fill with VERY high expectations. And there's a very limited number of them around period.

I have to think there's a few guys the Pats already have their eyes on among young UFAs and Candadian players.

What makes you think the Pats are looking for a kicker? Your making it sound like we don't have a kicker, or the Pats aren't happy with Gostkowski. Did you hear that the Pats are looking for a kicker or are you just assuming? I don't think the Pats are really trying to find an Adam V replacement. We didn't win our Superbowls 3-0.

 

[spacecrime]

What makes you think the Pats are looking for a kicker? Your making it sound like we don't have a kicker, or the Pats aren't happy with Gostkowski.

Look at the date of the post you are responding to. It was written before Gostkowski was drafted.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

well, don't you know, "it's a team game"..."one player doesn't win or lose any game"...yeah, right

lets see. SB XXXVI...they never get there if AV doesn't make the first snow bowl kick to send the game into OT...so, without him, they don't have XXXVI

XXXVIII...if he misses, the game is in OT...coin toss...50--50 they win that one without him

XXXIX...no way they lose that game to the eagles, no matter what...with him or without him...

so, i'd give him 1.5 of the 3...

 

[NEGoldenAge]

I agree that AV is the best CLUTCH kicker of all time, and that he'll be in the HOF because of it.... and rightfully so His career stats are pretty good, but not even close to HOF numbers. He also doesn't have the greatest leg that shows in both his range and his consistently short kickoffs.

 

[skri65]

That's a blatant rhetorical falacy