Moss getting more MVP discussion - could he beat out Brady?

[letekro]

As far as most "valuable", Albert Haynesworth should get consideration.

With him, they're a top 5 defense, without him, they're sieve-like.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Isn't MVP the most valuable player to the team? the player that makes the most difference to a team taht is doing well?

To me it is clear that Moss is NOT the league MVP. Replace Moss by any of a dozen receivers in the league and we would still liely be undefeated. In fact, most of us think that we would be undefeated without Moss, with no replacement.

If we had Brees or Big Ben or any of the 18 top QB's, what would our record be? We likely would have fewer win. I still think we'd be easy division winners, and easily one of the top team in the conference. That argues that Brady is NOT the MVP.

The player who really is the MVP this year is Brett Favre. He has taken the team on his back and carried it to 10-1. There is doubt as to whether pack is a playoff team without him.

So, by bottom line is that Brady and Moss may be having having the best year ever for a QB and for a WR, but neither is MVP.

No, the best definition of "Most Valuable Player" isn't really "most valuable player". It's a combination of things. One of the reasons there is often a lot of disagreement about who deserves the MVP is because definitions do vary - sometimes a lot.

Dealing with it strictly as a "If I subbed a player for him, where would the team be" is a very poor definition IMO. I think it should be primarily about how well a player plays (in conjunction with the importance of the position) with the player's impact on the team also strongly considered.

 

[holyredeemer]

I honestly cant understand why Randy Moss gets so much credit for how explosive this offense is. Brady is sooooo much better with Moss here, they say. I disagree. Look, Moss is a great player, I wont deny that, but I didnt see him turning any of the Raiders QB's into stars with him. Quite the opposite. Moss played down to their level.

So, now one has to argue why Moss has turned it back on here in N.E. Surrounding him with the type of players we have, no doubt helped, but the additions of Welker and Stallworth often gives Moss single coverage. I know we can all argue about this forever, but this is how I see it.

You can have the fastest, most incredibly powerful car in the world. But, without the keys to that car, it's just fun to look at, and nothing else.

Moss is that car, and Brady is the key that turns it on.

 

[dakevdude]

I honestly cant understand why Randy Moss gets so much credit for how explosive this offense is. Brady is sooooo much better with Moss here, they say. I disagree. Look, Moss is a great player, I wont deny that, but I didnt see him turning any of the Raiders QB's into stars with him. Quite the opposite. Moss played down to their level.

So, now one has to argue why Moss has turned it back on here in N.E. Surrounding him with the type of players we have, no doubt helped, but the additions of Welker and Stallworth often gives Moss single coverage. I know we can all argue about this forever, but this is how I see it.

You can have the fastest, most incredibly powerful car in the world. But, without the keys to that car, it's just fun to look at, and nothing else.

Moss is that car, and Brady is the key that turns it on.

I have to disagree. Randy Moss DOES make the Pats offense alot more explosive. Brady's stats this year proves it. Heck...last weeks Eagles game proved it. With Moss out of the equation...you are looking at around 28-34 points per game for the Pats. With Moss making plays...they are averaging around 40+.

> Brady is sooooo much better with Moss here, they say. I disagree
WRONG! Brady IS sooooo much better with Moss here. Have you been watching any of the Patriots games this year at all???

> but the additions of Welker and Stallworth often gives Moss single coverage
WRONG! Moss will get the majority of double coverages...thereby leaving other receivers with single coverage...and sometime a linebacker at that...

As for the debate of who should be MVP...I'm not sure why we are even arguing about this...the QB position will always have the upper hand. Even if Brady and Moss both have great seasons...the MVP will go to Brady hands down.

But also someone previously said that if Brady went to the Raiders he would make them a wild card playoff team. This is also wrong. I don't think Brady would last very long with that offensive line. The only QB that might survive behind that line is probably Vick due to his scrambling abilitity.

To be honest...I wish they would give the MVP to the Pats offensive line...LOL...cause they are one of the best O-Line out there and it all really starts with those "fat" guys...

 

[PatSunday]

We've been #1 in the AFC East 6 of the 7 most recent seasons.

He's started the season 6 times. He holds 6 tickets to the playoffs.

Without Brady, Moss wouldn't even be a Patriot.

 

[Xzibit23]

I honestly cant understand why Randy Moss gets so much credit for how explosive this offense is. Brady is sooooo much better with Moss here, they say. I disagree. Look, Moss is a great player, I wont deny that, but I didnt see him turning any of the Raiders QB's into stars with him. Quite the opposite. Moss played down to their level.

So, now one has to argue why Moss has turned it back on here in N.E. Surrounding him with the type of players we have, no doubt helped, but the additions of Welker and Stallworth often gives Moss single coverage. I know we can all argue about this forever, but this is how I see it.

You can have the fastest, most incredibly powerful car in the world. But, without the keys to that car, it's just fun to look at, and nothing else.

Moss is that car, and Brady is the key that turns it on.

I dont get it when people keep on bringing up Moss is 2 years with the Raiders, citing how he didn't make a difference there. The Raiders had the worst OLine, the worst coaching, and arguably the worst QB. Footbal is the ULTIMATE team sport, give Tom Brady that OLine and that coaching staff and he would struggle considerably. Just as how Moss is singular talent requires the pieces around him, Brady requires the same...lets not act like the '06 Pats were the '06 Raiders.

 

[nokturnal]

I dont get it when people keep on bringing up Moss is 2 years with the Raiders, citing how he didn't make a difference there. The Raiders had the worst OLine, the worst coaching, and arguably the worst QB. Footbal is the ULTIMATE team sport, give Tom Brady that OLine and that coaching staff and he would struggle considerably. Just as how Moss is singular talent requires the pieces around him, Brady requires the same...lets not act like the '06 Pats were the '06 Raiders.

good point. not to mention people are conveniently forgetting his years with the vikings. during his time in MN the vikes were 64-48 and went to two NFC championship games with virtually nothing at QB. and don't forget he made that 15-1 squad in 98.

and does everyone think it's just a coincidence that what will be the two top scoring offenses of all time featured randy moss???

i still think brady's the mvp but it's not outrageous to have moss in the discussion.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Its Brady by a mile. Brady made Caldwell, Gaffney, Branch, Givens and Patten look like superstars. Randy is a good WR, but he's no Brady.

 

[FrontSeven]

Bottom line is that the QB touches the ball on every play.

To his credit, Randy influences every play, and he's on the field for a high percentage of plays. He's a workaholic, and he makes a lot of things happen when the ball doesn't go to him.

But the QB touches the ball more.

As far as Randy "failing" against the Eagles: He caught a long TD pass, remember? No, you don't because it got stolen from him.

 

[Xzibit23]

Its Brady by a mile. Brady made Caldwell, Gaffney, Branch, Givens and Patten look like superstars. Randy is a good WR, but he's no Brady.

This is a Pats board and there's understandable favoritism towards Brady, but minus the SBs Moss has been just as good at his position as Brady has been at his. Lets not kid ourselves, when its all said and done, Randy Moss, by many, will be considered one of the 2-3 greatest WRs to ever play the game, and has a legitimate chance of building a legacy thats comparable to Jetty Rice. The same way Brady made average receivers overperform, Moss made average QBs looks elite. When it comes to accomplishment on the individual level, Moss takes a backseat to no one and all people have to hang their hats on is those 2 years in Oakland, one of which was a 1,000+ season anyway.

 

[Xzibit23]

Bottom line is that the QB touches the ball on every play.

To his credit, Randy influences every play, and he's on the field for a high percentage of plays. He's a workaholic, and he makes a lot of things happen when the ball doesn't go to him.

But the QB touches the ball more.

As far as Randy "failing" against the Eagles: He caught a long TD pass, remember? No, you don't because it got stolen from him.

This I agree with. The reasons why Brady deserves the MVP arent because he's better than Moss or because "Randy is no Brady." Its simply because of the position Brady plays vs the position Moss plays. You have two HOFers producing all time high values at their respective position, but one position(QB) has a broader and greater impact, and is thus more valuable.

 

[holyredeemer]

I dont get it when people keep on bringing up Moss is 2 years with the Raiders, citing how he didn't make a difference there. The Raiders had the worst OLine, the worst coaching, and arguably the worst QB. Footbal is the ULTIMATE team sport, give Tom Brady that OLine and that coaching staff and he would struggle considerably. Just as how Moss is singular talent requires the pieces around him, Brady requires the same...lets not act like the '06 Pats were the '06 Raiders.

ill tell you why I bring up the two yrs. with the Raiders. Cause I went to several of those games, watched him firsthand. He was a JOKE!! Blame it on the o-line, blame it on the QB, any excuse you come up for him is absolute bull****. He never ran full speed, never fully extended his arms when he was going across the middle, sat and sulked on the sidelines. He was a *****! It's as simple as that. Now he comes to NE and makes this team great? Please....we were 2 minutes from another SB last yr. Since Brady has stepped under center for this team, we have been competetive every yr. He's done this with what superstars at WR?

NONE!!

Randy is better now that he's here because he is playing with Tom ******* Brady. He tries now because he has to deal with Tom Brady if he doesnt. Tom Brady has made Randy Moss into the player he should've always been. Also, I should note that you are absolutely wrong about Brady going to Oak. Brady, no matter how many times he got jacked, would still get up, and still keep playing hard. Moss never even tried. Brady would make that entire team better just by entering that locker room.

Brady is a football GOD! :bricks:

 

[Brady to Brown]

This is a Pats board and there's understandable favoritism towards Brady, but minus the SBs Moss has been just as good at his position as Brady has been at his. Lets not kid ourselves, when its all said and done, Randy Moss, by many, will be considered one of the 2-3 greatest WRs to ever play the game, and has a legitimate chance of building a legacy thats comparable to Jetty Rice. The same way Brady made average receivers overperform, Moss made average QBs looks elite. When it comes to accomplishment on the individual level, Moss takes a backseat to no one and all people have to hang their hats on is those 2 years in Oakland, one of which was a 1,000+ season anyway.

Randy Moss is a Patriot because Brady is the QB.

Brady was a great QB prior to Moss joining the team.

Don't ever forget that.

Tom Brady is the NFL MVP for 2007. Case closed.

 

[Xzibit23]

ill tell you why I bring up the two yrs. with the Raiders. Cause I went to several of those games, watched him firsthand. He was a JOKE!! Blame it on the o-line, blame it on the QB, any excuse you come up for him is absolute bull****. He never ran full speed, never fully extended his arms when he was going across the middle, sat and sulked on the sidelines. He was a *****! It's as simple as that. Now he comes to NE and makes this team great? Please....we were 2 minutes from another SB last yr. Since Brady has stepped under center for this team, we have been competetive every yr. He's done this with what superstars at WR?

NONE!!

Randy is better now that he's here because he is playing with Tom ******* Brady. He tries now because he has to deal with Tom Brady if he doesnt. Tom Brady has made Randy Moss into the player he should've always been. Also, I should note that you are absolutely wrong about Brady going to Oak. Brady, no matter how many times he got jacked, would still get up, and still keep playing hard. Moss never even tried. Brady would make that entire team better just by entering that locker room.

Brady is a football GOD! :bricks:

Are you serious?? Yes, he started giving up on plays his second year in Oakland and yes thats inexcusable, but to somehow manifest that into his whole career is a joke. Do you know what this guy did in his first 7 yearxs in Minnesota?? Randy Moss isn't the creation of anybody, he was a GREAT WR in his rookie season, he had the best first 6 years to a WRS career in NFL history, setting record marks along the way. To try to erase all that because of 2 years in Oakland is not only crazy, but completely unfair.

And yes, Brady won without Moss and performed admirably, but to act like he performed at this level is asinine. They won previous superbowls because they had an offense that took advantage of what it was given, and Brady gets all the credit for that. BUT it wasn't a big play offense and it was successful because it had a defense that gave them room for error and a defense that wouldn't make high scoring affairs the norm. You guys crediting Brady for those SBs sometimes forget that those Pats teams were just as reliant on their defense as they were on their offense. Its not black and white, you can't simply state Brady won 3 SBs without Moss and was doing just as good. If the Pats win the SB this year, does Brady in 07 = Brady in 03?? Ofcourse not, cause football doesn't work that way.

 

[Xzibit23]

Randy Moss is a Patriot because Brady is the QB.

Brady was a great QB prior to Moss joining the team.

Don't ever forget that.

Tom Brady is the NFL MVP for 2007. Case closed.

Man, you guys are really missing the point. RANDY MOSS WAS A GREAT WR PRIOR TO JOINING THE PATS. Brady being great isn't the advantage he has over Moss because they both are great players in their own right. The real reason why he's probably the MVP is because he's a great player playing the most important position, like others have mentioned in this thread.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Are you serious?? Yes, he started giving up on plays his second year in Oakland and yes thats inexcusable, but to somehow manifest that into his whole career is a joke. Do you know what this guy did in his first 7 yearxs in Minnesota?? Randy Moss isn't the creation of anybody, he was a GREAT WR in his rookie season, he had the best first 6 years to a WRS career in NFL history, setting record marks along the way. To try to erase all that because of 2 years in Oakland is not only crazy, but completely unfair.

And yes, Brady won without Moss and performed admirably, but to act like he performed at this level is asinine. They won previous superbowls because they had an offense that took advantage of what it was given, and Brady gets all the credit for that. BUT it wasn't a big play offense and it was successful because it had a defense that gave them room for error and a defense that wouldn't make high scoring affairs the norm. You guys crediting Brady for those SBs sometimes forget that those Pats teams were just as reliant on their defense as they were on their offense. Its not black and white, you can't simply state Brady won 3 SBs without Moss and was doing just as good. If the Pats win the SB this year, does Brady in 07 = Brady in 03?? Ofcourse not, cause football doesn't work that way.

I never felt that Brady had the talent on offense to show how great a QB he could be. This year he has that talent in Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Watson, etc.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Man, you guys are really missing the point. RANDY MOSS WAS A GREAT WR PRIOR TO JOINING THE PATS. Brady being great isn't the advantage he has over Moss because they both are great players in their own right. The real reason why he's probably the MVP is because he's a great player playing the most important position, like others have mentioned in this thread.

I am not missing the point.

This thread is about who should be the MVP in the NFL this year.

WE BOTH AGREE. Its Tom Brady.

 

[nokturnal]

Brady was a great QB prior to Moss joining the team.

Don't ever forget that.

and moss was a great WR before he joined the team. what's your point?

 

[Brownfan80]

anyone who saw the eagles game and still says moss is the mvp not brady is out of his mind IMO- no offense to anyone.

+1

Agree completely.

Brady is the MVP. If not just for this season with weapons, then how about all the years that he played lights out with lesser weapons ('06, anyone) and didn't even get mentioned for the MVP honor?

Brady's the mack.

 

[holyredeemer]

Are you serious?? Yes, he started giving up on plays his second year in Oakland and yes thats inexcusable, but to somehow manifest that into his whole career is a joke. Do you know what this guy did in his first 7 yearxs in Minnesota?? Randy Moss isn't the creation of anybody, he was a GREAT WR in his rookie season, he had the best first 6 years to a WRS career in NFL history, setting record marks along the way. To try to erase all that because of 2 years in Oakland is not only crazy, but completely unfair.

And yes, Brady won without Moss and performed admirably, but to act like he performed at this level is asinine. They won previous superbowls because they had an offense that took advantage of what it was given, and Brady gets all the credit for that. BUT it wasn't a big play offense and it was successful because it had a defense that gave them room for error and a defense that wouldn't make high scoring affairs the norm. You guys crediting Brady for those SBs sometimes forget that those Pats teams were just as reliant on their defense as they were on their offense. Its not black and white, you can't simply state Brady won 3 SBs without Moss and was doing just as good. If the Pats win the SB this year, does Brady in 07 = Brady in 03?? Ofcourse not, cause football doesn't work that way.

We can argue about this as much as you'd like, but in the end, i'm right and your wrong. You just dont get it. The point is this. If Moss was still in Oakland, he'd be a piece of ****, a joke, a big dissapointment. If Moss didnt come here, brady would still be having a great yr. How can you argue with that? Brady would still be all pro and Moss would be in the gutter. Would Brady be having as good of a yr. that hes had? No, he wouldnt be, but he would still be having the best yr. of his career.
So, that's why Brady is the MVP, and Moss should be nowhere in the discussion of the two.

It's MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. If we didnt have Moss, we'd still be winning games, if we didnt ha....screw it. Im not going to tempt the football gods by even going there.