Charlie Weis to approach NEs coaching staff for help in the offseason - Pathetic

[PatriotsReign]

The fact is, it's HARD to win at Notre Dame.

Here's why:
1-No redshirts: Virtually ever other program in the country allows them, but ND doesn't. When a kid comes to ND, their eligibility clock starts as soon as they hit campus. This is a huge obstacle.

2-Academics: A lot of high profile recruits simply can't get in.

3-No JUCOs: Junior College players can be used to shore up key positions while you wait for a freshman to develop. ND doesn't recruit JUCOs.

4-No conference affiliation: Some would say this doesn't matter, but conference play allows for weak spots in your schedule.

5-A challenging schedule almost every single year: This year's ND sched. hasn't been as tough as some, but typically ND plays a very difficult schedule year in and year out as opposed to some top teir BCS teams who may have only two or three games a year that the results of are in doubt when you look at the sched. before the season.

ND does have a lot of tradition and prestige on its side, but as a practical matter, those don't count for much on game day. ND should have been better this year (most who follow CFB knew this would be a down year) but I'm not surprised he has struggled. He's recruited very well which is what he will need to do to turn it around.

But one fact makes all your points a joke. and that one fact is that recruiting the best players to go to ND is the easiest job in the country.

And since that is true, it only makes sense that winning at ND is one of the easiest coaching jobs in div 1 football. How can they NOT succeed?

I believe my point is validated by their history of winning.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are right about the fact I was never really crazy about Weis but that is irrelevant to this particular issue.

I thought he fit in well with the staff in NE but never did I think he was a offensive minded genius like those guys at ND who thought a NCAA Championship was near certain once he was under contract as HC,I knew there would be some lean times ahead but never did I see a season as pathetic as this one.

Have you SEEN that lack of talent that the previous stiff of a coach left behind in his last two recruiting classes? Weiss coached just fine when he had talent to coach.

 

[PATRIOT64]

ND & Louisville??? Why is that. I love how BC has become ND's daddy myself! I've never been a big fan of ND since they always get the most talent with the least effort just because of their reputation.

Actually I started watching Louisville back in the 80s and went down there on vacation and the Campus is simply awesome.

I really fell for them when watching that offense years ago and my favorite player was Deion Branch - Ironic isn't it?

As for ND,I go back to watching Montana when I was a kid and Theismann who was just as great - ALSO 2 Kids from a high school down my street happened to play on NDs team in the 90s - The Ismael brothers 'Quadry' and the 'Rocket' - Rocket Ismael looked like the next coming of Jerry Rice but ended up as a JAG in the NFL

 

[PatriotsReign]

You are right about the fact I was never really crazy about Weis but that is irrelevant to this particular issue.

I thought he fit in well with the staff in NE but never did I think he was a offensive minded genius like those guys at ND who thought a NCAA Championship was near certain once he was under contract as HC,I knew there would be some lean times ahead but never did I see a season as pathetic as this one.

I didn't realize you were a ND fan...I now understand why you feel the way you do. You should have made that a point in your original comments because it made it appear you had some unfounded hard feelings towards him.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

But one fact makes all your points a joke. and that one fact is that recruiting the best players to go to ND is the easiest job in the country.

And since that is true, it only makes sense that winning at ND is one of the easiest coaching jobs in div 1 football. How can they NOT succeed?

I believe my point is validated by their history of winning.

Wrong. A program like ND with national appeal still has to battle with regional schools for players.

Florida, Texas and California are the gold mines of college recruits year in and year out.

But nine times out of ten, a kid from Texas is going to want to go to UT. His first choice isn't going to be ND or Oklahoma or USC. A kid from Florida wants to go to U of F, or FSU or Miami. A kid growing up in Calif. will usually want to go to USC or UCLA before ND. Yes, there is a lot of allure to South Bend, but to a lot of kids, it's still a difficult sell when they grow up rooting for schools in their own state.

Also, the points are listed are in fact obstacles any coach at ND will have to overcome. Whether or not you understand them doesn't mean they don't matter.

The college football landscape has changed. This isn't the 1950s. Sounds like you don't follow it much.

 

[PATRIOT64]

So, do you have the same opinion about Bill Belichick? You do realize that Belichick talks to other coaches during the off-season. Coaches like Jimmy Johnson, Nick Saban and Urban Meyer. Coaches like Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa. Does that make Belichick pathetic? NO. It doesn't. It makes him SMART.

I can almost guarantee you Belichick does not ask those guys for advice on how to coach successfully - Unless you have been living under a rock for the past 7 years,Belichick has done a pretty good job at coaching and I don't think it has been with the advice of any of the guys you mentioned - Do they talk? - Yes as friends - do they each ask how they can be better at thier job? - not likely.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Actually I started watching Louisville back in the 80s and went down there on vacation and the Campus is simply awesome.

I really fell for them when watching that offense years ago and my favorite player was Deion Branch - Ironic isn't it?

As for ND,I go back to watching Montana when I was a kid and Theismann who was just as great - ALSO 2 Kids from a high school down my street happened to play on NDs team in the 90s - The Ismael brothers 'Quadry' and the 'Rocket' - Rocket Ismael looked like the next coming of Jerry Rice but ended up as a JAG in the NFL

I admit I loved ND as a kid because my dad cheered for them. Sounds like we're from the same generation. I actually remember ND playing against USC for the championship in the 60's I think.

Then came Doug Flutie and how could anyone from New England NOT become a BC fan? I'm a Umass alumn, but it's hard to root for div 1AA. Although I LOVED when Calipari was at Umass with Marcus Camby, etc.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Wrong. A program like ND with national appeal still has to battle with regional schools for players.

Florida, Texas and California are the gold mines of college recruits year in and year out.

But nine times out of ten, a kid from Texas is going to want to go to UT. His first choice isn't going to be ND or Oklahoma or USC. A kid from Florida wants to go to U of F, or FSU or Miami. A kid growing up in Calif. will usually want to go to USC or UCLA before ND. Yes, there is a lot of allure to South Bend, but to a lot of kids, it's still a difficult sell when they grow up rooting for schools in their own state.

Also, the points are listed are in fact obstacles any coach at ND will have to overcome. Whether or not you understand them doesn't mean they don't matter.

The college football landscape has changed. This isn't the 1950s. Sounds like you don't follow it much.

I've followed college football since the 60's & 70's. I know for a fact ND is at the top of many of the best recruits list of places to play. I didn't say they were at the top of EVERYONE'S list. But they surely have an easier time recruiting than say a Boston College. I'd easily put ND in the top 5 or at worst, top 10 of places where kids want to play.

Don't insult us by trying to make coaching at ND one of the tougher jobs in NCAA football.

 

[PATRIOT64]

I admit I loved ND as a kid because my dad cheered for them. Sounds like we're from the same generation. I actually remember ND playing against USC for the championship in the 60's I think.

Then came Doug Flutie and how could anyone from New England NOT become a BC fan? I'm a Umass alumn, but it's hard to root for div 1AA. Although I LOVED when Calipari was at Umass with Marcus Camby, etc.

I was Born in 1964

- Montana was the most complete and amazing football player I have ever seen and to do what he did in college and take it to even much greater heights in the pros is an athlete you see probably once or twice in your lifetime.

I see Brady as the next legendary QB but he will never be known IMO as the greatest QB ever because I saw what Montana did in College and then into the Pros and its impossible for me to see another man play the position in 2 different levels as Joe did

- Brady was decent in college with limited exposure but Legendary in the pros - Montana was legendary in both levels Although his 25-4 record at Notre Dame made most scouts and NFL GMs think he was only worth a 3rd rounder,they were wrong.

 

[PATRIOT64]

I've followed college football since the 60's & 70's. I know for a fact ND is at the top of many of the best recruits list of places to play. I didn't say they were at the top of EVERYONE'S list. But they surely have an easier time recruiting than say a Boston College. I'd easily put ND in the top 5 or at worst, top 10 of places where kids want to play.

Don't insult us by trying to make coaching at ND one of the tougher jobs in NCAA football.

I would not say Notre Dame is tougher to coach at but ND coaches are more scrutinized when they fail more so those at Florida,Texas ECT:

If Joe Paterno was not winning constantly he would have been long gone before I was even born - Penn State is another of those schools where the coach is expected to win every year or at least be in position for playing in one of the Bowls

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I've followed college football since the 60's & 70's. I know for a fact ND is at the top of many of the best recruits list of places to play. I didn't say they were at the top of EVERYONE'S list. But they surely have an easier time recruiting than say a Boston College. I'd easily put ND in the top 5 or at worst, top 10 of places where kids want to play.

Don't insult us by trying to make coaching at ND one of the tougher jobs in NCAA football.

When Charlie Weis goes out to recruit, he's going after kids who weren't even born in 1988 when ND won its last title.

You seem to think it's as simple as Weis showing up at a high school, announcing himself and then the kid commits (and later signs) with the Irish. It usually doesn't work that way for him or anyyone else.

There was a kid from my area (Gerald Jones) who ND went after hard. Weis came to his school and his house, assistants came here, he took a visit to South Bend and loved it and came very close to signing there. But he went to Tennessee. Why? Because he doesn't like the cold.

That's what Weis (and every other college HC) is up against. There are other variables like being homesick, girlfriends...anything you can imagine. It comes up.

It's fair enough that you've followed CFB for awhile, but honestly, you seem a little out of touch with how things are now. ND is a fantastic program and school and I would have gone there in a second given the opportunity, even as a student. But the fact is, they have the same challenges other "powers" have when it comes to recruiting and even bigger obstacles when they get a kid on campus.

 

[PatriotsReign]

When Charlie Weis goes out to recruit, he's going after kids who weren't even born in 1988 when ND won its last title.

You seem to think it's as simple as Weis showing up at a high school, announcing himself and then the kid commits (and later signs) with the Irish. It usually doesn't work that way for him or anyyone else.

There was a kid from my area (Gerald Jones) who ND went after hard. Weis came to his school and his house, assistants came here, he took a visit to South Bend and loved it and came very close to signing there. But he went to Tennessee. Why? Because he doesn't like the cold.

That's what Weis (and every other college HC) is up against. There are other variables like being homesick, girlfriends...anything you can imagine. It comes up.

It's fair enough that you've followed CFB for awhile, but honestly, you seem a little out of touch with how things are now.

You were the one who claimed coaching at ND is so difficult. Then how does BC get into the top 20 every year with less talent than ND? I'm not out of touch with today's reality, but don't kid yourself about ND losing all the lustre of years past. They STILL get the most attention by the media. If they are undefeated after say 5 games, the media is all over that school more than any other. Just look at Weis' first year! Don't think all that free advertising doesn't go a long way. And they have their own network and ND is still one of the most followed college teams in the nation.

I still contend that it is fairly easy relative to other colleges for them to recruit a top 10 class every year.

Do you disagree?

 

[PATRIOT64]

You were the one who claimed coaching at ND is so difficult. Then how does BC get into the top 20 every year with less talent than ND? I'm not out of touch with today's reality, but don't kid yourself about ND losing all the lustre of years past. They STILL get the most attention by the media. If they are undefeated after say 5 games, the media is all over that school more than any other. Just look at Weis' first year! Don't think all that free advertising doesn't go a long way. And they have their own network and ND is still one of the most followed college teams in the nation.

I still contend that it is fairly easy relative to other colleges for them to recruit a top 10 class every year
.

Do you disagree?

I could name USC as one of them for sure.

 

[jbb9s]

Belichick talks to his friends in the offseason. Saban, Groh, etc. Nothing wrong with that.

Absolutely. LSU is the feeder school of the NEP and Pat Hill probably pushed for Logan Mankins.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

You were the one who claimed coaching at ND is so difficult. Then how does BC get into the top 20 every year with less talent than ND? I'm not out of touch with today's reality, but don't kid yourself about ND losing all the lustre of years past. They STILL get the most attention by the media. If they are undefeated after say 5 games, the media is all over that school more than any other. Just look at Weis' first year! Don't think all that free advertising doesn't go a long way. And they have their own network and ND is still one of the most followed college teams in the nation.

I still contend that it is fairly easy relative to other colleges for them to recruit a top 10 class every year.

Do you disagree?

Easy as opposed to what?

The guys ND goes after are also being recruited by USC, Florida, Ohio State, Michigan, LSU....all the big powers. Sure it would be easy for Weis to get a kid who had only been offered by schools like BC or Rutgers but he's not going after those kids. He's going after guys who are being recruited by schools with as much to sell as ND has. Plus he's battling regional loyalties and every other factor mentioned above.

Exposure matters absoultely. But it has to be the right kind of exposure. ND hasn't had any of that this year. When the media is talking about ND, they're talking about how bad they are.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Easy as opposed to what?

The guys ND goes after are also being recruited by USC, Florida, Ohio State, Michigan, LSU....all the big powers. ...

Easy as opposed to the 100+ schools than can never get the talent ND gets. BC is one of those schools. You didn't explain how BC gets in the top 20 every year but probably never even gets a top 30 recruiting class...that's called COACHING!

I'm saying that ND gets a top 10 recruiting class every year. if you didn't know it, recruiting classes at the major college programs are ranked every year. And ND is always ranked very highly. So the net/net is that ND's poor play has come down to poor coaching, not lack of talent.

Remember, recruiting is like drafting. Some colleges may recruit highly touted players who turn out to be a bust. This would be a case of poor evaluation skills on the part of the coaches team of scouts.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Easy as opposed to the 100+ schools than can never get the talent ND gets. BC is one of those schools. You didn't explain how BC gets in the top 20 every year but probably never even gets a top 30 recruiting class...that's called COACHING!

I'm saying that ND gets a top 10 recruiting class every year. if you didn't know it, recruiting classes at the major college programs are ranked every year. And ND is always ranked very highly. So the net/net is that ND's poor play has come down to poor coaching, not lack of talent.

Remember, recruiting is like drafting. Some colleges may recruit highly touted players who turn out to be a bust. This would be a case of poor evaluation skills on the part of the coaches team of scouts.

Sure coaching has a lot to do with it. So does stability. ND has had Willingham and Bob Davie in recent years. Neither will ever be on College Football's Mr. Rushmore anytime soon.

You're way off on the talent level ND currently has. I've watched at least 8 ND games this year and they have no where near the team speed and overall athleticism most top SEC or Pac 10 schools have. In fact their lack of team speed on both sides of the ball should be GLARING to anyone who has watched the games.

And again, the red-shirt/juco issues are also major issues even after a kid gets on campus.

But yes, I agree, Weis and his staff could have done a better job this year. My hunch was ND was overrated back in August and that a losing season was within the realm of possibility but that was not the prevailing thought when the initial polls came out.

I do think the book is still out on Weis. The rule of thumb is 5 years to give a guy a chance to win or lose with his own groceries. if they can't after that point, it's time to cut them loose. But the fact he's attempting to get advice from the best coach in football history doesn't bother me. It's probably a good idea.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Sure coaching has a lot to do with it. So does stability. ND has had Willingham and Bob Davie in recent years. Neither will ever be on College Football's Mr. Rushmore anytime soon.

You're way off on the talent level ND currently has. I've watched at least 8 ND games this year and they have no where near the team speed and overall athleticism most top SEC or Pac 10 schools have. In fact their lack of team speed on both sides of the ball should be GLARING to anyone who has watched the games.

And again, the red-shirt/juco issues are also major issues even after a kid gets on campus.

But yes, I agree, Weis and his staff could have done a better job this year. My hunch was ND was overrated back in August and that a losing season was within the realm of possibility but that was not the prevailing thought when the initial polls came out.

I do think the book is still out on Weis. The rule of thumb is 5 years to give a guy a chance to win or lose with his own groceries. if they can't after that point, it's time to cut them loose. But the fact he's attempting to get advice from the best coach in football history doesn't bother me. It's probably a good idea.

I actually looked up the rankings for recruiting classes from 2002-2008 on Rivals.com. It looks like we are both right and wrong. In 4 out of the past 7 years, ND has had a top 12 recruiting class. for the last 3 years, ND has had top 10 recruiting classes and the 2008 Notre Dame recruiting class is ranked #1 in the nation! But the other 3 recruiting classes were horrible.

here's the summary and the link;

http://rivals100.rivals.com/TeamRank.asp?postype=0&sort=0&year=2008

2002 - #24
2003 - #12
2004 - #32
2005 - #40
2006 - #8
2007 - #8
2008 - #1

The good news is that the Irish "should" definately be better in the coming years. Based upon the last 2 years recruiting class, they should have played better THIS year.

Maybe this gives you some hope!

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I actually looked up the rankings for recruiting classes from 2002-2008 on Rivals.com. It looks like we are both right and wrong. In 4 out of the past 7 years, ND has had a top 12 recruiting class. for the last 3 years, ND has had top 10 recruiting classes and the 2008 Notre Dame recruiting class is ranked #1 in the nation! But the other 3 recruiting classes were horrible.

here's the summary and the link;

http://rivals100.rivals.com/TeamRank.asp?postype=0&sort=0&year=2008

2002 - #24
2003 - #12
2004 - #32
2005 - #40
2006 - #8
2007 - #8
2008 - #1

The good news is that the Irish "should" definately be better in the coming years. Based upon the last 2 years recruiting class, they should have played better THIS year.

Maybe this gives you some hope!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Those lousy classes in 2004 and 2005 are on the field right now as juniors and seniors.

I like ND, but I'm an Oklahoma fan. But thanks for the sentiment.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Those lousy classes in 2004 and 2005 are on the field right now as juniors and seniors.

I like ND, but I'm an Oklahoma fan. But thanks for the sentiment.

check out that site! it's pretty informative!