The SalPal thread on '72 Dolphins

[FrontSeven]

I didn't see this posted yet:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=paolantonio_sal&id=3107054

If there's any doubt that the '72 Dolphins weren't the greatest team ever, that pretty much settles the issue.

When you talk about *the* greatest team, I'm not sure how you can put them at the top even today. Based upon strength of schedule I'd have to say that they played inferior opponents, even throughout the playoffs. That was a pretty putrid year for the NFL except for the Dolphins.

 

[Nordy]

The 72 Fins aren't even in the top 3.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

While I agree that the 72 Dolphins aren't in the top 3, you still have to respect the fact that they beat everyone they played. There wasn't anything they could do to improve the strength of the schedule they were given.

For my money, it's between the 70's Steelers and the 80's Niners, with the 00's Pats coming up fast on the outside.

 

[bradmahn]

While I agree that the 72 Dolphins aren't in the top 3, you still have to respect the fact that they beat everyone they played. There wasn't anything they could do to improve the strength of the schedule they were given.

For my money, it's between the 70's Steelers and the 80's Niners, with the 00's Pats coming up fast on the outside.

Yeah, it's still a feat to beat everyone you play, even if you are "supposed" to beat them. Look at the '03 Pats, they went 7-0 against teams with winning records (five of them being playoff teams, with the other two against a 10-6 Dolphins squad), but their two losses were against crap teams.
There's a reason no other team has gone undefeated; it's too damn difficult.
That '72 Dolphins team is impressive.

 

[Metaphors]

While I agree that the 72 Dolphins aren't in the top 3, you still have to respect the fact that they beat everyone they played. There wasn't anything they could do to improve the strength of the schedule they were given.

For my money, it's between the 70's Steelers and the 80's Niners, with the 00's Pats coming up fast on the outside.

The '72 Fins definitely hold the titles of most undefeatedest team and best team in 1972. It is a stretch to say much more than that.

The '85 Bears were the single most dominating team I have ever seen. Take the way the Skins' defense looked against the Pats' offense this year...and that is the way opponents looked against the Bears' D. Much like a root canal, they just wanted it to be over quickly and not be in much pain afterward. They had a couple of comebacks and close calls, but generally just physically overpowered opponents.

So why did the Bears lose to the Fins? They got ****y and complacent. Ditka/Ryan figured they could just roll the "46" out there and win. We also tend to forget what a unique talent Marino was in his day. Lightening quick release and sprayed the ball all over the field. The Bears were not prepared and got spanked. It served as a wakeup call and the Bears' opponents in the playoffs got absolutely steamrolled as a result.

If the Pats win the title this year (even if they lose a game) they will overtake the '85 Bears in my opinion. I haven't seen all 3 phases of the game being played as well as the Pats have this year. One dominating unit and two superior ones. You might be able to sell your soul to beat them for 40 or 50 minutes, but I don't know how you do it for all 60.

The beauty of the NFL playoffs is that all it takes is one bad day and a season of excellence can be overshadowed. The Bears started their Super Bowl Shuffle a little early and it cost them an undefeated season. The coaches and veterans for the Pats will make sure the only shuffling this team is doing is off to Buffalo this weekend.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

Until the Pats have absolute SHUTDOWN days on defense, than I have a hard time putting this team over the 85 Bears. The 85 Bears had 10 games holding opponents to 10 points or less, including FOUR shutouts(including playoffs). The 85 Bears only won one game by less than 7 points. Their offense wasn't chopped liver either, as only the Chargers(467) scored more than the Bears(456). As great as the Pats offense has been thus far(maybe the best ever), they have only held two teams to 10 points or less thru nine games. The 89 Niners held 7 teams to 10 points or less, including ONE shutout. The 72 Dolphins held 7 teams to 10 points or less(in only 17 games, not 19) and had THREE shutouts. Until the Pats defense starts SHUTTING teams down, I am still not ready to vault them ahead of the 85 Bears.

 

[Metaphors]

Their offense wasn't chopped liver either

You are right...until you compare them to the '07 Pats. The '85 Bears scored 44 TDs (17 pass, 27 rush). The '07 Pats have already scored 41 (33 pass, 8 rush). That difference is far greater than the difference between the defenses.

We will really never know how good the '85 Bears' offense was because they generally didn't need to do much to win. Walter Payton was immense that year, but the rest of the crew was efficient and unspectacular.

You really have to judge teams from different eras using the "eyeball" test. The Bears were dominating and the Pats have been equally dominating so far this year. The difference for me is that there was a formula for beating the Bears (fast receivers, spread the field, get rid of the ball). I haven't seen a formula for beating the Pats yet. That will be the difference for me if the Pats win the championship this year.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

You are right...until you compare them to the '07 Pats. The '85 Bears scored 44 TDs (17 pass, 27 rush). The '07 Pats have already scored 41 (33 pass, 8 rush). That difference is far greater than the difference between the defenses.

We will really never know how good the '85 Bears' offense was because they generally didn't need to do much to win. Walter Payton was immense that year, but the rest of the crew was efficient and unspectacular.

You really have to judge teams from different eras using the "eyeball" test. The Bears were dominating and the Pats have been equally dominating so far this year. The difference for me is that there was a formula for beating the Bears (fast receivers, spread the field, get rid of the ball). I haven't seen a formula for beating the Pats yet. That will be the difference for me if the Pats win the championship this year.

The Bears offense was built around Payton. Run the ball and you have a lot of time consuming drives down the field. I agree the Pats offense is more of a quick strike attack. It's better than the 85 Bears because of Brady and Moss alone. However, if you don't think the difference between the 85 Bears defense and the 07 pats defense is just as big as the 07 Pats offense and the 85 Bears offense, than you are being naive. That 85 Bears defense had FOUR shutouts. They were tough, fast, and supremely talented. They held their opponents to 198 points in 85 and then to prove it was no fluke, came back and allowed only 187 in 1986. It was immense. To put it in perspective, the Pats are on pace to allow 258 points this year, which would only make the 07 Pats 5th in the league in points allowed if the Steelers, Packers, Bucs, and Seahawks keep their pace up. Also, as great as our offense has been, let's not forget the 2007 Colts Defense held it to 24 points. If the 2007 Colts defense can hold us to 24 points, than surely the 85 Bears would have a shot at doing the same. Until the Pats put up monster points on the Colts or Steelers, than I'm not ready to say their offense would be enough to beat the 85 Bears.

 

[PatriotsReign]

The Bears offense was built around Payton. Run the ball and you have a lot of time consuming drives down the field. I agree the Pats offense is more of a quick strike attack. It's better than the 85 Bears because of Brady and Moss alone. However, if you don't think the difference between the 85 Bears defense and the 07 pats defense is just as big as the 07 Pats offense and the 85 Bears offense, than you are being naive. That 85 Bears defense had FOUR shutouts. They were tough, fast, and supremely talented. They held their opponents to 198 points in 85 and then to prove it was no fluke, came back and allowed only 187 in 1986. It was immense. To put it in perspective, the Pats are on pace to allow 258 points this year, which would only make the 07 Pats 5th in the league in points allowed if the Steelers, Packers, Bucs, and Seahawks keep their pace up. Also, as great as our offense has been, let's not forget the 2007 Colts Defense held it to 24 points. If the 2007 Colts defense can hold us to 24 points, than surely the 85 Bears would have a shot at doing the same. Until the Pats put up monster points on the Colts or Steelers, than I'm not ready to say their offense would be enough to beat the 85 Bears.

When comparing any player or team from different era's, you have to evaluate each one in it's period. The net/net is what the Patriots have accomplished in the era of "Parity" and the salary-cap is nothing less than astonishing...END OF STORY!

NO IF'S, AND'S OR BUT'S

 

[Metaphors]

The Bears offense was built around Payton. Run the ball and you have a lot of time consuming drives down the field. I agree the Pats offense is more of a quick strike attack. It's better than the 85 Bears because of Brady and Moss alone. However, if you don't think the difference between the 85 Bears defense and the 07 pats defense is just as big as the 07 Pats offense and the 85 Bears offense, than you are being naive.

Not at all. The Bears played 7 games where the opponents came within 2 scores. The Pats have only played 1 so far. Why would the Pats' D want to play better than keeping every team but one from being in shouting distance at the end of the game? What is the benefit? The same goes for the Bears offense. Why would they have tried to score more than they needed to win comfortably?

The Bears' philosophy was to let the D dominate the action and let the O reap the benefits (field position, turnovers, etc). Opposite for the Pats...let the O get a big lead and take advantage of a team playing catchup. The reason why I give props to the Pats' D is that when they needed to come up big and carry the offense, they shut down one of the top offenses in the league. When the Bears D struggled against Miami, the offense didn't have enough to carry the day.

That 85 Bears defense had FOUR shutouts. They were tough, fast, and supremely talented. They held their opponents to 198 points in 85 and then to prove it was no fluke, came back and allowed only 187 in 1986. It was immense.

Remember that I agree with you that the '85 Bears are the best team I've ever seen...so far.

To put it in perspective, the Pats are on pace to allow 258 points this year, which would only make the 07 Pats 5th in the league in points allowed if the Steelers, Packers, Bucs, and Seahawks keep their pace up.

60 points allowed over 16 games comes out to a little more than a FG. The points allowed argument doesn't wash. In fact, it goes to further my point...
Bears allow 12.5, Pats 16.3 (diff = 3.8)
Pats score 39.4, Bears 28.4 (diff = 11)

Also, as great as our offense has been, let's not forget the 2007 Colts Defense held it to 24 points. If the 2007 Colts defense can hold us to 24 points, than surely the 85 Bears would have a shot at doing the same.

I'm assuming you watched the Colts game and I don't have to go over the details of what went on. Apart from that, this argument is bogus as well. Miami scored 38 on the Bears. TB scored 28 in a competitive game. What would the Pats be able to do?

Also, virtually playing games across eras is a little silly. The '07 Pats would crush the '85 Bears just based on physical ability. Just like the Bears would beat the Packers of the 60's. The Bear's OL would have never seen a DL anything like Seymour/Wilfork/Warren. The Bears would be lucky to score. Not putting down the Bears, just saying you can't compare cross-era teams by saying "who would beat who if they played today".

Until the Pats put up monster points on the Colts or Steelers, than I'm not ready to say their offense would be enough to beat the 85 Bears.

If you are doubting the effectiveness of this Pats' offense, you are on your own there.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Not at all. The Bears played 7 games where the opponents came within 2 scores. The Pats have only played 1 so far. Why would the Pats' D want to play better than keeping every team but one from being in shouting distance at the end of the game? What is the benefit? The same goes for the Bears offense. Why would they have tried to score more than they needed to win comfortably?

The Bears' philosophy was to let the D dominate the action and let the O reap the benefits (field position, turnovers, etc). Opposite for the Pats...let the O get a big lead and take advantage of a team playing catchup. The reason why I give props to the Pats' D is that when they needed to come up big and carry the offense, they shut down one of the top offenses in the league. When the Bears D struggled against Miami, the offense didn't have enough to carry the day.



Remember that I agree with you that the '85 Bears are the best team I've ever seen...so far.



60 points allowed over 16 games comes out to a little more than a FG. The points allowed argument doesn't wash. In fact, it goes to further my point...
Bears allow 12.5, Pats 16.3 (diff = 3.8)
Pats score 39.4, Bears 28.4 (diff = 11)



I'm assuming you watched the Colts game and I don't have to go over the details of what went on. Apart from that, this argument is bogus as well. Miami scored 38 on the Bears. TB scored 28 in a competitive game. What would the Pats be able to do?

Also, virtually playing games across eras is a little silly. The '07 Pats would crush the '85 Bears just based on physical ability. Just like the Bears would beat the Packers of the 60's. The Bear's OL would have never seen a DL anything like Seymour/Wilfork/Warren. The Bears would be lucky to score. Not putting down the Bears, just saying you can't compare cross-era teams by saying "who would beat who if they played today".



If you are doubting the effectiveness of this Pats' offense, you are on your own there.

You forgot to factor in THE most important factor...

SALARY CAP VS. NO SALARY-CAP

To be as dominant as the Patriots have been in a time when the rules are made to prevent dominance, has never been achieved at the level the Patriots have shown.

 

[kriskanos]

Until the Pats have absolute SHUTDOWN days on defense, than I have a hard time putting this team over the 85 Bears. The 85 Bears had 10 games holding opponents to 10 points or less, including FOUR shutouts(including playoffs). The 85 Bears only won one game by less than 7 points. Their offense wasn't chopped liver either, as only the Chargers(467) scored more than the Bears(456). As great as the Pats offense has been thus far(maybe the best ever), they have only held two teams to 10 points or less thru nine games. The 89 Niners held 7 teams to 10 points or less, including ONE shutout. The 72 Dolphins held 7 teams to 10 points or less(in only 17 games, not 19) and had THREE shutouts. Until the Pats defense starts SHUTTING teams down, I am still not ready to vault them ahead of the 85 Bears.

The 85' Bears.....I love discussing the 85' Bears. But what about 84' and 86'? Was this 85' team a monster that swept down in all its glory just to vanish? What a joke.

 

[kriskanos]

You forgot to factor in THE most important factor...

SALARY CAP VS. NO SALARY-CAP

To be as dominant as the Patriots have been in a time when the rules are made to prevent dominance, has never been achieved at the level the Patriots have shown.

Exactly so even without a salary cap the Bears faded the next year.

 

[Metaphors]

The 85' Bears.....I love discussing the 85' Bears. But what about 84' and 86'? Was this 85' team a monster that swept down in all its glory just to vanish? What a joke.

They won the championship. Prerequisite for being included in the "Greatest of All Time" conversation.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Until the Pats have absolute SHUTDOWN days on defense, than I have a hard time putting this team over the 85 Bears. The 85 Bears had 10 games holding opponents to 10 points or less, including FOUR shutouts(including playoffs). The 85 Bears only won one game by less than 7 points. Their offense wasn't chopped liver either, as only the Chargers(467) scored more than the Bears(456). As great as the Pats offense has been thus far(maybe the best ever), they have only held two teams to 10 points or less thru nine games. The 89 Niners held 7 teams to 10 points or less, including ONE shutout. The 72 Dolphins held 7 teams to 10 points or less(in only 17 games, not 19) and had THREE shutouts. Until the Pats defense starts SHUTTING teams down, I am still not ready to vault them ahead of the 85 Bears.

So when did the best team of all time become the best defense of all time and ignore offense and special teams?

 

[FrontSeven]

Until the Pats have absolute SHUTDOWN days on defense, than I have a hard time putting this team over the 85 Bears. The 85 Bears had 10 games holding opponents to 10 points or less, including FOUR shutouts(including playoffs). The 85 Bears only won one game by less than 7 points. Their offense wasn't chopped liver either, as only the Chargers(467) scored more than the Bears(456). As great as the Pats offense has been thus far(maybe the best ever), they have only held two teams to 10 points or less thru nine games. The 89 Niners held 7 teams to 10 points or less, including ONE shutout. The 72 Dolphins held 7 teams to 10 points or less(in only 17 games, not 19) and had THREE shutouts. Until the Pats defense starts SHUTTING teams down, I am still not ready to vault them ahead of the 85 Bears.

That's an interesting take.

Since the season is not over we don't really know what the final numbers look like, but with an offense this dominating you have to rank it even with the Bears' defense. Match the dominant units and see what you have. They look equal to me.

When you match our defense with their offense I see something similar - not quite what you'd call complete or perfect, but much better than average.

I don't remember their STs but I think our STs are looking very, very good. Except for the punting unit, I don't see many holes. Our coverages are excellent, and our kick game is excellent. The return units are excellent.

I think the defense has the personnel to distinguish itself with a healthy Richard in there. He's still not all the way back either. When he is, if they shut down a couple of offenses then it will certainly create a very interesting comparison to the Bears if you cross-compare offenses and defenses.

 

[stcjones]

I didn't see this posted yet:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=paolantonio_sal&id=3107054

If there's any doubt that the '72 Dolphins weren't the greatest team ever, that pretty much settles the issue.

When you talk about *the* greatest team, I'm not sure how you can put them at the top even today. Based upon strength of schedule I'd have to say that they played inferior opponents, even throughout the playoffs. That was a pretty putrid year for the NFL except for the Dolphins.

I have heard this many times.....that the 72 doofins played one of the SOFTEST (if not THE softest) schedules in the history of the NFL....now this stat proves it!!!! What a sham.....they should be ashamed of themselves with strutting their old bags out every year with champagne bottles to celebrate WHAT?????? The Pats have accomplished more with their 22 game win streak....than the 72 doofins EVER did............what a f'in joke

 

[stcjones]

You forgot to factor in THE most important factor...

SALARY CAP VS. NO SALARY-CAP

To be as dominant as the Patriots have been in a time when the rules are made to prevent dominance, has never been achieved at the level the Patriots have shown.

Great Points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!