For Those Advocating The Selection of Darren McFadden

[sebman2112]

Maroney missed two games because of injury in 2006, and he's missed three games this year. I'd give him a little more time before I'd consider him injury prone. When healthy Maroney has done well (with the carries they've given him). In 2006 he averaged 4.3 ypc, added up 745yds behind Dillon, and 783yrds on Kick returns. So far this season he's averaged 4.7ypc, and he's only had two games with under a 5 ypc avg.

While Maroney doesn't get a lot of looks as a receiver, he can catch the ball just fine. Did you watch the Redskins game? The Patriots don't use Maroney in that role more because they have Faulk. I'd like to see NE give Laurence more looks as a receiver though.

I could understand your saying he's missed some games with injury, so you'd like to see him stay healthy before placing your trust in him, but I'm kind of surprised at wanting to replace him.

Let's not let McFadden's being among a lot of peoples binkies cloud our vision. Saying NE should draft McFadden would be overlooking the fact that NE doesn't need him, and they have bigger issues. I mean, it's not like Maroney, Morris, and Faulk will all likely be on the 2008 roster, and it's not like there's going to be a bunch of good RB's in the 2008 draft class, right? I'd much rather see NE drop down a few spots and draft someone like Kenny Phillips, then use a second, third, or fourth on a RB to develope as either Morris or Faulk's replacement.

People talk about Maroney running to upright, and his injury problems. McFadden is the definition of an upright runner. Also, he's built somewhat like a WR, and he's kind of top heavy. What do I mean by that? His upper body is long and developed, while his lower body should be more developed (thicker) for his size and position. I'm not saying the guy is going to be a bust, as I've been impressed with some of his college performances, but don't for a second think there aren't question marks concerning his ability to transfer his game to the NFL.

Another thing to think about is the fame McFadden has already gained, and how that would effect his contract demands if selected 3rd, 4th, or 5th overall. I'd be willing to bet Darren's agent (especially with the succes of Paterson) is going to try and break the bank of whom ever drafts him, and NE's not about to fork over that kind of cash to a RB, especially with one first round contract (late first) already at the position.

Finally, let's talk about how everyone is comparing McFadden to Adrian Peterson. I can see some of the comparison when it comes to running styles, and some of the other aspects of their games, but they're different runners. Peterson has a stronger lower body, more of an overall RB's build, and he's a tougher runner. When I say tougher, I mean he breaks more tackles, and is harder to take down. So, I wouldn't so quickly take Peterson's success as indication that McFadden will have that same level of success.

 

[danny88]

Maroney missed two games because of injury in 2006, and he's missed three games this year. I'd give him a little more time before I'd consider him injury prone. When healthy Maroney has done well (with the carries they've given him). In 2006 he averaged 4.3 ypc, added up 745yds behind Dillon, and 783yrds on Kick returns. So far this season he's averaged 4.7ypc, and he's only had two games with under a 5 ypc avg.

While Maroney doesn't get a lot of looks as a receiver, he can catch the ball just fine. Did you watch the Redskins game? The Patriots don't use Maroney in that role more because they have Faulk. I'd like to see NE give Laurence more looks as a receiver though.

I could understand your saying he's missed some games with injury, so you'd like to see him stay healthy before placing your trust in him, but I'm kind of surprised at wanting to replace him.

Let's not let McFadden's being among a lot of peoples binkies cloud our vision. Saying NE should draft McFadden would be overlooking the fact that NE doesn't need him, and they have bigger issues. I mean, it's not like Maroney, Morris, and Faulk will all likely be on the 2008 roster, and it's not like there's going to be a bunch of good RB's in the 2008 draft class, right? I'd much rather see NE drop down a few spots and draft someone like Kenny Phillips, then use a second, third, or fourth on a RB to develope as either Morris or Faulk's replacement.

People talk about Maroney running to upright, and his injury problems. McFadden is the definition of an upright runner. Also, he's built somewhat like a WR, and he's kind of top heavy. What do I mean by that? His upper body is long and developed, while his lower body should be more developed (thicker) for his size and position. I'm not saying the guy is going to be a bust, as I've been impressed with some of his college performances, but don't for a second think there aren't question marks concerning his ability to transfer his game to the NFL.

Another thing to think about is the fame McFadden has already gained, and how that would effect his contract demands if selected 3rd, 4th, or 5th overall. I'd be willing to bet Darren's agent (especially with the succes of Paterson) is going to try and break the bank of whom ever drafts him, and NE's not about to fork over that kind of cash to a RB, especially with one first round contract (late first) already at the position.

Finally, let's talk about how everyone is comparing McFadden to Adrian Peterson. I can see some of the comparison when it comes to running styles, and some of the other aspects of their games, but they're different runners. Peterson has a stronger lower body, more of an overall RB's build, and he's a tougher runner. When I say tougher, I mean he breaks more tackles, and is harder to take down. So, I wouldn't so quickly take Peterson's success as indication that McFadden will have that same level of success.

BB does not draft for need. He takes the best value. If thats a trade he makes the trade. If its for picks he takes the picks. Etc etc.

Maroney is not a bust. Maroney is a injury machine.

 

[patchick]

BB does not draft for need. He takes the best value.

Pardon me, but this is one of my pet peeves. BB absolutely drafts for need! When has he ever used a 1st or 2nd on a guy who wouldn't be counted on to start by his 2nd season? On the rare occasion that there's a hole in the starting lineup -- e.g. LG in 2005 -- he drafts to that position. You just might not notice it because he carefully tries to avoid leaving those obvious holes, thus giving the team more flexibility on draft day.

You cannot talk about "value" independent of need. Brady Quinn would have been a "value" pick for a lot of teams at #24 last year, but not for the Patriots.

 

[everlong]

I'm hoping McFadden is on the board when we draft so we can trade down. This draft lacks the pure #1 overall so it might be better if we're drafting 4th or 5th.

Currently we would be picking 4th with Miami, St Louis and the Jets ahead of us. I don't see any of them drafting McFadden although I suppose the Jets could. Hopefully a couple of teams after us fall in love with him and we can trade down.

Petersen getting hurt sucks I was hoping he would run for 2k to drive up McFadden's value. I know they're a different style of back but this is a copy cat league and his success would lead others to drafting a back high.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Pardon me, but this is one of my pet peeves. BB absolutely drafts for need! When has he ever used a 1st or 2nd on a guy who wouldn't be counted on to start by his 2nd season? On the rare occasion that there's a hole in the starting lineup -- e.g. LG in 2005 -- he drafts to that position. You just might not notice it because he carefully tries to avoid leaving those obvious holes, thus giving the team more flexibility on draft day.

You cannot talk about "value" independent of need. Brady Quinn would have been a "value" pick for a lot of teams at #24 last year, but not for the Patriots.

Amen. The Patriots are looking for value in their system. Right now, no QB is worth a first-round pick to the Pats; in fact, I'm not really sure any player available right now would be worth what a top-five pick would cost.

 

[dryheat44]

in fact, I'm not really sure any player available right now would be worth what a top-five pick would cost.

And that's the thing. If the Pats can't trade back, what do they do? I refuse to believe that a safety or a WR is worth a top 5 pick to the Patriots. It has been mentioned that Son of Howie and McFadden are unlikely because of the use of cap dollars. Ditto QB. There's no CB on the board that merits a top 5 pick (and I'm going to say top 3...because I don't think the 49ers are going to win again).

I think the direction to go is to get Jake Long, even if it requires moving up a spot or two.

 

[danny88]

Pardon me, but this is one of my pet peeves. BB absolutely drafts for need! When has he ever used a 1st or 2nd on a guy who wouldn't be counted on to start by his 2nd season? On the rare occasion that there's a hole in the starting lineup -- e.g. LG in 2005 -- he drafts to that position. You just might not notice it because he carefully tries to avoid leaving those obvious holes, thus giving the team more flexibility on draft day.

You cannot talk about "value" independent of need. Brady Quinn would have been a "value" pick for a lot of teams at #24 last year, but not for the Patriots.

If bb drafted on need alone he would have drafted a lb last year. He takes best player available on HIS board. My point was bb will not draft a player higher then he should since the pats need help at the position.


I hope he drafts Long.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

And that's the thing. If the Pats can't trade back, what do they do? I refuse to believe that a safety or a WR is worth a top 5 pick to the Patriots. It has been mentioned that Son of Howie and McFadden are unlikely because of the use of cap dollars. Ditto QB. There's no CB on the board that merits a top 5 pick (and I'm going to say top 3...because I don't think the 49ers are going to win again).

I think the direction to go is to get Jake Long, even if it requires moving up a spot or two.

I would agree with you dryheat. The only thing that I would point out is that a high draft pick is signed for 6 years. Sey I believe only has three years on his contract. Ditto with Maroney.

The cream of the crop production of a top 5 pick should be the last three years of his six year contract (assuming he gets better each year.) So if BB decides in the longterm to replace Sey with Son of Howie, with Sey beinging the mentor for three years. I could see that.

 

[cstjohn17]

I would agree with you dryheat. The only thing that I would point out is that a high draft pick is signed for 6 years. Sey I believe only has three years on his contract. Ditto with Maroney.

The cream of the crop production of a top 5 pick should be the last three years of his six year contract (assuming he gets better each year.) So if BB decides in the longterm to replace Sey with Son of Howie, with Sey beinging the mentor for three years. I could see that.

Chris Long is a nice story but I don't think he is worth a top 5 pick, he has experience in the 3-4 but is at least 20 pounds lighter than our starting DEs. Smells like a better version of Klecko to me.

The locks appear to be Jake Long (OT), Dorsey (DT) and then maybe McFadden. After that is it a crap shoot. It would be nice if a couple of the QBs would actually start to play some decent football.

As far as McFadden goes, the reason he would be picked is because he improves the team* . <---- period

Maroney would slide into a reserve role or be cut / traded, it is nothing personal. Maroney's cap numbers.are managable, I would keep him, you can never have too much depth at RB (or any other position).

Cap numbers, next 3 years.
Maroney, Laurence 1,634,220 1,774,220 2,009,220 UFA

*Standard disclaimer, I would trade down. Top B+ players are better and more affordable than an A player.

 

[dryheat44]

Chris Long is a nice story but I don't think he is worth a top 5 pick, he has experience in the 3-4 but is at least 20 pounds lighter than our starting DEs. Smells like a better version of Klecko to me.

The locks appear to be Jake Long (OT), Dorsey (DT) and then maybe McFadden. After that is it a crap shoot. It would be nice if a couple of the QBs would actually start to play some decent football.

As far as McFadden goes, the reason he would be picked is because he improves the team* . <---- period

.

I agree that McFadden would improve the team. He just has to be better than Kyle Eckel for that to be true. There are a lot of QBs out there that improve the team over Matt Guttierez, but I wouldn't draft one on the first day. God knows that punter could be improved. Depth guys on the OL could be improved.

"Improving the team" though, seems to be not enough a reason for spending a top 5 pick on McFadden.

I also think many of us are forgetting how great Maroney was at UM. I think McFadden is the best RB in the draft, but I'm not 100% that he'll be a better pro than Maroney, whom I thought was the best RB in the draft two years ago.

 

[patchick]

If bb drafted on need alone he would have drafted a lb last year. He takes best player available on HIS board. My point was bb will not draft a player higher then he should since the pats need help at the position.


I hope he drafts Long.

- After the FA signings, including A. Thomas, the Pats had no real need at ANY position for 2007. They did have a glaring need at safety for 2008.
- If your point was really "bb will not draft a player higher then he should," awesome. Nobody on the planet will argue with you. But if you go back to your original post, your point seemed to be that BB won't avoid a position (RB) because of the perception that it's not needed. Or that need isn't a central factor in his drafts. I disagree with both statements.
- Which Long?

 

[cstjohn17]

I agree that McFadden would improve the team. He just has to be better than Kyle Eckel for that to be true. There are a lot of QBs out there that improve the team over Matt Guttierez, but I wouldn't draft one on the first day. God knows that punter could be improved. Depth guys on the OL could be improved.

"Improving the team" though, seems to be not enough a reason for spending a top 5 pick on McFadden.

I also think many of us are forgetting how great Maroney was at UM. I think McFadden is the best RB in the draft, but I'm not 100% that he'll be a better pro than Maroney, whom I thought was the best RB in the draft two years ago.

I disagree (respectively of course). IMO McFadden will be a much better pro than Maroney, McF improves the team because he is better than the #1 starter. This pushes the rest of the depth down.

It is a good debate, to pick McFadden or not but it has been beaten to death, I have nothing left to add that hasn't been said 1,000 times.

 

[danny88]

- After the FA signings, including A. Thomas, the Pats had no real need at ANY position for 2007. They did have a glaring need at safety for 2008.
- If your point was really "bb will not draft a player higher then he should," awesome. Nobody on the planet will argue with you. But if you go back to your original post, your point seemed to be that BB won't avoid a position (RB) because of the perception that it's not needed. Or that need isn't a central factor in his drafts. I disagree with both statements.
- Which Long?

Howies son.

 

[patchick]

It is a good debate, to pick McFadden or not but it has been beaten to death, I have nothing left to add that hasn't been said 1,000 times.

Too true. And it's November!!!

With two low firsts last year, almost anything was possible. If it's really a top-5 pick this year, I fear we're doomed for months and months of hashing over a tiny handful of players. Sigh.

So who do you like at the end of the 2nd?

 

[mcbee]

I disagree (respectively of course). IMO McFadden will be a much better pro than Maroney, McF improves the team because he is better than the #1 starter. This pushes the rest of the depth down.

It is a good debate, to pick McFadden or not but it has been beaten to death, I have nothing left to add that hasn't been said 1,000 times.

He will be much better? How in the world would you know? The world is littered with can't miss RB prospects who missed. And you have to pay him as though he is a can't miss no matter what he does.

I would argue that any high pick (top 10) isn't worth the money that has to be guaranteed.

The art of 'value' is buying something cheaper than the value you get. Paying a great player 10M per year isn't value unless he's worth more than that. Paying a good player 1M per is a great value as it frees money to pay a great player.

 

[ayjackson]

He will be much better? How in the world would you know?

Obviously he's projecting. Any draft pick can bust. Most experts would likely project McFadden to be a better back than Maroney. Not many would project Chris Long or Dean Dorsey to be a better DE in our defense than Ty Warren or Richard Seymour or maybe even Richard Green.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[cstjohn17]

He will be much better? How in the world would you know? The world is littered with can't miss RB prospects who missed. And you have to pay him as though he is a can't miss no matter what he does.

I would argue that any high pick (top 10) isn't worth the money that has to be guaranteed.

The art of 'value' is buying something cheaper than the value you get. Paying a great player 10M per year isn't value unless he's worth more than that. Paying a good player 1M per is a great value as it frees money to pay a great player.

I had a big, long, fancy response but then my browser crashed... after punching the wall I am back, here is the short version.

I don't know he will be better, I really don't know anything, I am just a stupid fan. I believe in internet slang IMO means In My Opinion, so in my opinion I think Mcfadden will be a better pro because when compared against Maroney (college Maroney) McFadden is - bigger, stronger, faster, has better hands, more productive, far more highly rated by the evaluators and plays against much harder competition. Other than that they are about the same.

Value, we here talking about value? I don't want the Pats to pick in the top 5 but if they need and McFadden can be an impact player I would take him if I really, really had to. And if he was selected the team would be better (cap stuff aside).

 

[VJCPatriot]

I had a big, long, fancy response but then my browser crashed... after punching the wall I am back, here is the short version.

I don't know he will be better, I really don't know anything, I am just a stupid fan. I believe in internet slang IMO means In My Opinion, so in my opinion I think Mcfadden will be a better pro because when compared against Maroney (college Maroney) McFadden is - bigger, stronger, faster, has better hands, more productive, far more highly rated by the evaluators and plays against much harder competition. Other than that they are about the same.

Value, we here talking about value? I don't want the Pats to pick in the top 5 but if they need and McFadden can be an impact player I would take him if I really, really had to. And if he was selected the team would be better (cap stuff aside).

Well preaching to the choir. And don't forget that the Patriots have 'doubled up' on a position they recently drafted before. Daniel Graham followed by Watson. Guess which player is still on the team? I don't see why Maroney followed by McFadden couldn't happen, considering past history.

 

[sebman2112]

Well preaching to the choir. And don't forget that the Patriots have 'doubled up' on a position they recently drafted before. Daniel Graham followed by Watson. Guess which player is still on the team? I don't see why Maroney followed by McFadden couldn't happen, considering past history.

You simply don't understand the difference.

See, using Graham and Watson as an example would be fine, if the situation wasn't completely different. McFadden drafted in the top 4-5 will sign a contract equal to 3-4 Maroney contracts. Do you understand the implications this contract would have on NE's salary cap? It seems completely unrealistic to think Pioli and BB would put that kind of strain on their cap for a rookie RB.

Even if you think McFadden will be a better RB than Maroney, do you think he'll produce 3-4 times more than Maroney? This is a question you have to ask yourself.

Also, NE was trying to install a two TE system at the time, and they frequently used three TE's in-game. For the most part NE hasn't lined two RB's up in the backfield together (I consider Evans a FB). So, there's a difference in the Patriots use of the two positions.

I'll leave you with this. Scott Pioli has said he doesn't see the value in top ten selections, as he thinks the contracts are far to extreme. He believes the sweet spot in the draft comes from around 14-28. I tend to agree with him. There's been plenty of players drafted in that range of late who ended up being far better pros than a lot of the "can't miss" athletes taken in the top 5-10, and their contracts are substantially smaller.

 

[Crazyeechrispats1]

I've just watched some Darren Mcfadden highlight videos, one thing I notice is he actually runs right up the middle at times instead of hesitate on what hole to pick.
I'd love to draft him better us than the Jets, although what I see is our personnel department doing what's best for the team rather it's drafting this guy or trading the pick for more guys.
One thing is imagine a backfield of Mcfadden and MAroney at the same time on the field defenses won't know will get the ball and who to respect.