Don Banks of SI takes it to Don Shula

[Patsmaniac]

A niece piece to see on Don Shulas oversized ego and concern for his legacy..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/11/08/shula.pats/index.html

 

[PonyExpress]

F Banks and his backhanded support. Since when did it become in any way acceptable or appropriate to question the legitimacy of the Pats' SB victories? There is no evidence that any malfeasance occurred, and the NFL has declared that nothing untoward affected the outcome of any game. This garbage must stop. if these are our friends, who needs enemies.

 

[zadnor]

An asterisk would be silly in this case. If the transgression were great enough for that, the NFL should have had the Pats forfeit the game (and maybe they should have but that's another discussion altogether). I'd love to see the Pats run the table but that's not a foregone conclusion by any means as other teams who have gone deep into the season unbeaten can tell you. That's what makes the Dolphins's accomplishment so remarkable. I know Shula would love to have his Dolphins's legacy remain unmatched and that's understandable but the way he's proposing deserves its own asterisk.

 

[PonyExpress]

If the transgression were great enough for that, the NFL should have had the Pats forfeit the game (and maybe they should have but that's another discussion altogether). QUOTE]

Do you believe the Pats' should have forfeited that game, or not? Say what you mean.

 

[Lansdowne]

F Banks and his backhanded support.

That's what I was thinking as well. Especially with this paragraph:

... Fair or unfair, that's the blot on New England's legacy that Bill Belichick inspired with his blatant disregard for the league's rules. The NFL has unintentionally fed that perception by not revealing how far back the Patriots' covert videotaping went back, or how extensively it was used, thereby leaving room for doubt about New England's three three-point Super Bowl wins.

I'm tired of the jealous media and "fans" that spout this nonsense.

 

[zadnor]

No, I don't think the game should have been forfeited. But I think a pretty good argument could be made for it. Especially, as I understand it, the Pats had been warned by the league about this very thing before. (If I'm wrong about that, my apologies.) The league is only going to impose a forfeit in an extreme--and I mean very extreme--situation and this wasn't that extreme. But you could say, because it was a TEAM cheating there should be a zero tolerance policy. otherwise, cheating goes on all the time (not that that makes it all right); OL grab jerseys ifthey think they can get away with not being seen, people bite and gouge in pile-ups, etc. I do agree with the above statement that, because the tape was seized before it had any chance of being used, no damage was done.

 

[zadnor]

So there I said what I meant about that. And it is a separate discussion. Which is what I meant in the first place. But I'm happy to oblige. Beats working.

 

[PonyExpress]

No, I don't think the game should have been forfeited. But I think a pretty good argument could be made for it. Especially, as I understand it, the Pats had been warned by the league about this very thing before. (If I'm wrong about that, my apologies.) The league is only going to impose a forfeit in an extreme--and I mean very extreme--situation and this wasn't that extreme. But you could say, because it was a TEAM cheating there should be a zero tolerance policy. otherwise, cheating goes on all the time (not that that makes it all right); OL grab jerseys ifthey think they can get away with not being seen, people bite and gouge in pile-ups, etc. I do agree with the above statement that, because the tape was seized before it had any chance of being used, no damage was done.

Should Shula forfeit the AFC title game to the Jets for watering the field? Should Polian forfeit the SFC title game for pumping fake sound into his building? Should Shanahan forfeit his games for using lip readers to steal signals? Should Walsh forfeit his games for purposely cutting out the radio transmissions of his opponents as Parcells alleges? Should the Steelers forfeit their games for steroid use in the 1970s? Should Paul Brown forfeit his games for being the first to secretly use radio communications? Should George Halas forfeit games for bugging the opponents' lockerroom? Should Jimmy Johnson forfeit games for videotaping signals and other activities he has admitted? Should Schottenheimer forfeit games for videotaping signals? Should Howard Mudd be fined for videotaping signals? Should Saban forfeit games for stealing signals? Should the 49ers and Broncos forfeit games for circumventing the salary cap? Should the Eagles forfeit games for interfering with their opponents audio system during games? Should the Redskins forfeit games for piping in artificial crowd noise? Should the old Giants forfeit their title for using sneakers instead of cleats? Honestly, this is called GAMESMANSHIP. It's gone on for 80 years and has been part of the game. This year, the malevolent Jets, eager to manipulate public opinion via a willing NY press machine, and a green commissioner overwhelmed by his first PR wildfire and lacking perspective on league history, smeared the NE franchise. Throw in a Players Association pressuring the commish to make an example of management as he had been with so many players this offseason, and a competition commitee composed of Bill Polian, Patriot nemesis Jeff Fischer et.al., and you have the recipe for mob justice. I have no idea which team you root for. You sound like a reasonable if uninformed fan. But don't think you can come here and argue that the Pats should forfeit a game and pretend you are being fair-minded.

 

[DarrylS]

Should Shula forfeit the AFC title game to the Jets for watering the field? Should Polian forfeit the SFC title game for pumping fake sound into his building? Should Shanahan forfeit his games for using lip readers to steal signals? Should Walsh forfeit his games for purposely cutting out the radio transmissions of his opponents as Parcells alleges? Should the Steelers forfeit their games for steroid use in the 1970s? Should Paul Brown forfeit his games for being the first to secretly use radio communications? Should George Halas forfeit games for bugging the opponents' lockerroom? Should Jimmy Johnson forfeit games for videotaping signals and other activities he has admitted? Should Schottenheimer forfeit games for videotaping signals? Should Howard Mudd be fined for videotaping signals? Should Saban forfeit games for stealing signals? Should the 49ers and Broncos forfeit games for circumventing the salary cap? Should the Eagles forfeit games for interfering with their opponents audio system during games? Should the Redskins forfeit games for piping in artificial crowd noise? Should the old Giants forfeit their title for using sneakers instead of cleats? Honestly, this is called GAMESMANSHIP. It's gone on for 80 years and has been part of the game. This year, the malevolent Jets, eager to manipulate public opinion via a willing NY press machine, and a green commissioner overwhelmed by his first PR wildfire and lacking perspective on league history, smeared the NE franchise. Throw in a Players Association pressuring the commish to make an example of management as he had been with so many players this offseason, and a competition commitee composed of Bill Polian, Patriot nemesis Jeff Fischer et.al., and you have the recipe for mob justice. I have no idea which team you root for. You sound like a reasonable if uninformed fan. But don't think you can come here and argue that the Pats should forfeit a game and pretend you are being fair-minded.

Nice post, there has been so much.. even the running up the score crap, didn't the heralded and angelic Dolphins in 72 beat the Pats 52-0??. there is not a lot of so called "integrity" in the NFL, there is a lot of gamesmanship. Goodell can try all he wants, but he needs to be consistent.. seems as though he backed down from Polian.

 

[zadnor]

Pony, I believe if you had read my post you'd know I said that I do not believe the Patriots should have been made to forfeit. What they did is not an extreme enough transgression, just as the other instances you cited were not. As I pointed out, forfeiting is an absolute last resort (right after the death penalty, I think) for the NFL.

 

[PromisedLand]

F Banks and his backhanded support. Since when did it become in any way acceptable or appropriate to question the legitimacy of the Pats' SB victories? There is no evidence that any malfeasance occurred, and the NFL has declared that nothing untoward affected the outcome of any game. This garbage must stop. if these are our friends, who needs enemies.

I absolutely agree with Banks on this:

If Shula wants to question the legitimacy of the Patriots' success before their videotaping habits were exposed, have at it. He wouldn't be the first voice heard on that front. Fair or unfair, that's the blot on New England's legacy that Bill Belichick inspired with his blatant disregard for the league's rules.

 

[zadnor]

Best way to keep a team from running up the score is to play defense. The NFL is a professional league. You don't want to get blown out, then, do your job.

 

[Deus Irae]

I absolutely agree with Banks on this:

If Shula wants to question the legitimacy of the Patriots' success before their videotaping habits were exposed, have at it. He wouldn't be the first voice heard on that front. Fair or unfair, that's the blot on New England's legacy that Bill Belichick inspired with his blatant disregard for the league's rules.

I find this amusing given that nobody has ever shown this rule to have been in existence during the Patriots Super Bowl years.

 

[Denzera]

I find this amusing given that nobody has ever shown this rule to have been in existence during the Patriots Super Bowl years.

This is the biggest point i've been using when talking football with my friends. As far as we can tell, the rule Belichick violated was not a rule prior to 2006.

A poster over at Sons of Sam Horn says that it wasn't in the official rulebook that he was sent prior to the 2006 season - and that a league memo went out about the rule during that season. It's possible that the rule he violated was in force for less than a full year when BB was busted. How that can be interpreted as evidence of cheating in prior years is beyond all rationality.

 

[PromisedLand]

Denzera and Deus Irae, you're missing the point.
Read what Banks said carefully. He did not say what he thinks - he did not say the Patriots are guilty or their should be an asterisk or that their Super Bowl trophies are tainted.

He said whether or not it is fair, BB has invited - no, maybe that's too strong - how about opened the door - to the suspicions. And it is true that BB disregarded the rule, and I think it almost unimaginable that he didn't know he was violating the rule given the league's explicit memo the week before the season started. And I think by doing that he has done loyal Patriots fans a disservice. I am grateful for his great coaching skills and thankful for the trophies, but opening the door to the suspicions and accusations was a bad step.

OK, I fully expect to be accused of being disloyal and not a real fan. Bring it on.

 

[PonyExpress]

Denzera and Deus Irae, you're missing the point.
Read what Banks said carefully. He did not say what he thinks - he did not say the Patriots are guilty or their should be an asterisk or that their Super Bowl trophies are tainted.

He said whether or not it is fair, BB has invited - no, maybe that's too strong - how about opened the door - to the suspicions. And it is true that BB disregarded the rule, and I think it almost unimaginable that he didn't know he was violating the rule given the league's explicit memo the week before the season started. And I think by doing that he has done loyal Patriots fans a disservice. I am grateful for his great coaching skills and thankful for the trophies, but opening the door to the suspicions and accusations was a bad step.

OK, I fully expect to be accused of being disloyal and not a real fan. Bring it on.

Coaches have been videotaping signals for decades. They have also been using stickum for receivers and DBs (see Lester Hayes), using sneakers instead of cleats when called for, buigging lockerrooms, using technology to their advantage in every way shape and form. There has never been any punishment handed down for those "infractions", nor has any coach other than Mangini ever complained to the press and publicly begged the league office for disciplinary action. Whatever memo the new commish sent out, why should BB have believed it had any more teeth than the memo that was sent out about fake crowd noise, or offseason participation or a dozen other minutiae about which the NFL only pretends interest? Where was the precedent for such a punishment or discipline? The answer is nowhere. The fault does not lie with Belichick for inviting a smear campaign against him. It lies with a foolish commissioner for caving in to an orchestrated media campaign from the Jets, heeding the advice of a biased competition commitee outraged by the Moss theft, and a Players association eager for white collar blood. BB invited nothing. This was an ambush. Think of BB as Robin Hoodie and his band of Patriotic Merry Men in Foxboro Forest stealing signs for the NE poor, and Goodell as the weak, corrupt Prince John and Polian as the psychotic Sheriff of Nottingham. When they arrest Robin Hoodie to be hanged in the village square for stealing signs, I guess your response is, he asked for it. Mine is, let's rally Little John Moynahan, Friar Tuck Coleman and Maid Marion Gisele and get Robin Hoodie the hell out of there.

 

[Joker]

OK, I fully expect to be accused of being disloyal and not a real fan. Bring it on.

are you a Colts fan?

No?

sorry...you get NO accusations...as a citizen of Patriots Nation your right to dissent is inviolate.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Denzera and Deus Irae, you're missing the point.
Read what Banks said carefully. He did not say what he thinks - he did not say the Patriots are guilty or their should be an asterisk or that their Super Bowl trophies are tainted.

He said whether or not it is fair, BB has invited - no, maybe that's too strong - how about opened the door - to the suspicions. And it is true that BB disregarded the rule, and I think it almost unimaginable that he didn't know he was violating the rule given the league's explicit memo the week before the season started. And I think by doing that he has done loyal Patriots fans a disservice. I am grateful for his great coaching skills and thankful for the trophies, but opening the door to the suspicions and accusations was a bad step.

OK, I fully expect to be accused of being disloyal and not a real fan. Bring it on.

To extrapolate on Pony's point, with fans like you who needs enemies.

The memo went out a year and a week before the JETS game.

Teams have been "catching" each other doing this for years. The response has been if you find my guy, escort him off the property. And if I find your guy I will do the same.

The only real problem aside from a procedural rules violation in videotaping signs would be evidence that the information was being used in game to effect the outcome of the game in which the taping was occurring. BB WAS PROBABLY RIGHT IN CONCLUDING THAT THAT WAS THE SPIRIT IN WHICH THE RULE WAS LIKELY INACTED whenever that was. Goodell stated he found no evidence that we ever in fact did that, and the tapes and documentation we provided substantiated what BB told him was in fact the intended long range usefulness of the tapes - to build a library of tendancies of DC's in the league to call specific defenses relative to down, distance and situation over time.

However what we were hysterically punished for obviously reflected the liklihood that as Clayton said others were using their tapes in game by burining DVD's and delivering them to coaches in the locker room at half time who were then matching them up to the polaroids the league provides of every snap to see what defensive call matched up with which defensive formation. Clayton stated he was told of at least 2 teams who in fact had been doing just that who were not the NEP. And of course that information would be of little use to an OC unless he had the capacity to communicate with his QB at the line to adjust the play called to match that defense which is another whole level of "cheating". But the league chose to punish us for what others also do with the information they tape as a means to inspire them to cease and desist.

Any HC with half a brain studies tendancies. Although it is entirely likely that there are at any point in time a whole lot of HC's in the NFL operating on less than half a brain. We are fortunate to have the only one in the present day NFL to possess a brain and a half. His most vocal critics in the coaching fraternity are at the opposite end of the brain scale. They were only too gleeful to see the only first ballot lock HOF coach in their generation taken down a peg. Although some had second thoughts once the novalty wore off and the repercussions befan to be felt, on and off the field.

And as far as I'm concerned the only bad step BB has made in the last 8 years was extending his hand to an overweight little pissant copy boy working in the Cleveland PR department enabling him to fast track to the HC ranks of the NFL - however temporarily.

 

[PonyExpress]

MoLewisrocks;614791] Clayton said others were using their tapes in game by burining DVD's and delivering them to coaches in the locker room at half time who were then matching them up to the polaroids the league provides of every snap to see what defensive call matched up with which defensive formation. Clayton stated he was told of at least 2 teams who in fact had been doing just that who were not the NEP. And of course that information would be of little use to an OC unless he had the capacity to communicate with his QB at the line to adjust the play called to match that defense which is another whole level of "cheating". But the league chose to punish us for what others also do with the information they tape as a means to inspire them to cease and desist.

Great find, Mo. Did Clayton write that in an article or say that on air? it would be great to be able to reference that with a link to put enemies of our team in their place.

 

[kriskanos]

Pony, I believe if you had read my post you'd know I said that I do not believe the Patriots should have been made to forfeit. What they did is not an extreme enough transgression, just as the other instances you cited were not. As I pointed out, forfeiting is an absolute last resort (right after the death penalty, I think) for the NFL.

Wheres my damn troll revealing spell(checks pockets)