JJ: Colts OL coach "Best in league at FILMING signals"

[alamo]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

Filming, stealing, the difference doesn't matter to me.

That may be true, but you are in a significant minority by holding that position.

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

That may be true, but you are in a significant minority by holding that position.

The problem is that everyone has a bias. I think most people here agree with me. And most fans of other teams don't - because they don't want to. We're outnumbered 31-1 but if people want to say I'm (we're) biased, I'll shrug and say most others are too.

 

[alamo]

Thanks for backing me up against the Alamo, who needs to read clearly before throwing insults about Patriots fans.

I wasn't insulting Patriots fans, I was insulting just you

JJ: That's what I'm saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimers scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that's how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

In my previous post I was going by the attributed PFT blurb, which says "stealing". But let's look at the above quote. Does the quote I was supposed to read say filming? No. It says "stealing". In that context it probably means someone else filmed the signals, likely under the direction of the head coach whoever that was. Mudd then interpreted the signals, apparently. To me that is a MAJOR difference than Mudd filming signals.

The reason I pointed all this out, is that you are obviously trying to implicate the Colts, and while that may be true the info we have so far doesn't do so. In a previous job Mudd interpreted films ordered by someone else.

It's a place to start investigation if anyone wants to... if Florio is as impartial and above-board as he says he is he'll follow this line of investigation as much or more than the Patriots one.

 

[alamo]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

The problem is that everyone has a bias. I think most people here agree with me. And most fans of other teams don't - because they don't want to. We're outnumbered 31-1 but if people want to say I'm (we're) biased, I'll shrug and say most others are too.

I disagree that most fans of other teams are complaining about stealing signals and consider the filming part incidental. Most people think signals sent in plain sight are open season for coaches on the opposite sideline.

Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating. the difference is that a player is a participant in the game, someone in the stands is an outside agent looking to change the game. In the case of football a coach is part of the game, Matt Estrella is not.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

I disagree that most fans of other teams are complaining about stealing signals and consider the filming part incidental. Most people think signals sent in plain sight are open season for coaches on the opposite sideline.

Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating. the difference is that a player is a participant in the game, someone in the stands is an outside agent looking to change the game. In the case of football a coach is part of the game, Matt Estrella is not.

I played baseball up to and in the college level, and might have gone further if I hadn't gotten injured. I think stealing signs is cheating, no matter what the rule is. I feel the same way, in principle, about stealing signs in every sport. However, the sports themselves don't always feel that way.

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating.

If they can get the signal into the hitter before the pitch I agree. And if the Patriots got the signal and got it into the QB or MLB then I would agree that's cheating.

In either case if it were for post game analysis then I don't agree and that's what I believe was the case.

 

[alamo]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

In either case if it were for post game analysis then I don't agree and that's what I believe was the case.

I agree with you there... but I do think most non-Patriots fans don't believe the Patriots cameramen didn't relay signs to the coaches. The entire outcry against the Pats is implicitly based on the Pats using the cameras for in-game advantage (e.g. the lawsuit). It's much easier for Patriots fans who have seen time and again the maniacal attention to detail BB displays to believe the filming was for such a seemingly low-benefit future cause.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at FILMING signals"

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007...rd-mudd-was-the-best-in-the-entire-league-at/

media is already throwing out theories that JJ's friendship with BB is making him say that.

Who gives a crap what "theories" the media has come up with.

One thing we need to get straight here is that the "Media" and/or their theories have nothing to do with this issue.

Look, we really should be "up in arms" over the hundreds of media individuals who have come up with false stories and mixed their opinions & beliefs in with few facts to exaggerate this thing beyond reason.

If JJ said it, he said it. And that's all that matters. He surely wouldn't "make it up"!

 

[PatriotsReign]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

I disagree that most fans of other teams are complaining about stealing signals and consider the filming part incidental. Most people think signals sent in plain sight are open season for coaches on the opposite sideline.

Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating. the difference is that a player is a participant in the game, someone in the stands is an outside agent looking to change the game. In the case of football a coach is part of the game, Matt Estrella is not.

Why are we even discussing an issue that has been 100% resolved? It is now done, finished.....MOOT!

These facts remain,

-Belichick is still the best coach in the NFL today...possibly the best ever!
-The Patriots still have 3 super bowl trophies that remain untarnished
-The Patriots chances THIS year are pretty darn good

Opposing fans BELIEVE Patriots fans should feel embaressed...but we remain PROUD!

Opposing fans wanted harsher penalties...but it didn't happen!

Opposing fans want this issue to linger...but it is going away quickly!

Opposing fans WANTED this to affect the Patriots play in 2007...but it has made it better!

To opposing fans....

TOUGH SHIIITE!!​

 

[tdw777]

..I was going by the attributed PFT blurb, which says "stealing". But let's look at the above quote. Does the quote I was supposed to read say filming? No. It says "stealing". In that context it probably means someone else filmed the signals, likely under the direction of the head coach whoever that was. Mudd then interpreted the signals, apparently. To me that is a MAJOR difference than Mudd filming signals.

The reason I pointed all this out, is that you are obviously trying to implicate the Colts, and while that may be true the info we have so far doesn't do so. .

I don't know what the PFT blurb said...but I listened to the interview and JJ did not say or imply that Mudd did any filiming. He only said that Mudd was one of the best of interpreting signals. There was no implication that Mudd did any filming.

 

[psychoPat]

Coaches' Cut

....
Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating. the difference is that a player is a participant in the game, someone in the stands is an outside agent looking to change the game. In the case of football a coach is part of the game, Matt Estrella is not.

Although i have an independent conviction in this matter, i also acknowledge
a sort of moral background static
because of the sheer number of people who see it otherwise.

Alamo gives here the most compelling line of reasoning that i have seen
which might account for their mass mistake.

But the cameramen who film the "coaches' cut" views ARE part of the game -
part of THE NEXT game.
They are authorized.
If BB's use of Estrella's work product was only for the future,
then he was merely expanding the coaches' cut
... and i fail to see the difference.

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

Why are we even discussing an issue that has been 100% resolved? It is now done, finished.....MOOT!

These facts remain,

-Belichick is still the best coach in the NFL today...possibly the best ever!
-The Patriots still have 3 super bowl trophies that remain untarnished
-The Patriots chances THIS year are pretty darn good

Opposing fans BELIEVE Patriots fans should feel embaressed...but we remain PROUD!

Opposing fans wanted harsher penalties...but it didn't happen!

Opposing fans want this issue to linger...but it is going away quickly!

Opposing fans WANTED this to affect the Patriots play in 2007...but it has made it better!

To opposing fans....

TOUGH SHIIITE!!​

Thank you for summarizing....I couldn't agree more.

Now that the dust is settling from this issue, i'ts great that some players and coaches are now stepping up and saying that what the Patriots did is the status quo of the NFL....

 

[kolbitr]

Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

I disagree that most fans of other teams are complaining about stealing signals and consider the filming part incidental. Most people think signals sent in plain sight are open season for coaches on the opposite sideline.

Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating. the difference is that a player is a participant in the game, someone in the stands is an outside agent looking to change the game. In the case of football a coach is part of the game, Matt Estrella is not.

I agree with you there... but I do think most non-Patriots fans don't believe the Patriots cameramen didn't relay signs to the coaches. The entire outcry against the Pats is implicitly based on the Pats using the cameras for in-game advantage (e.g. the lawsuit). It's much easier for Patriots fans who have seen time and again the maniacal attention to detail BB displays to believe the filming was for such a seemingly low-benefit future cause.

A couple of comments...

1) I would say that many baseball fans are against other teams stealing their team's signals, regardless of how it's done. But I especially think that it was not the camera itself that was the catalyst for all this hate. If BB had been standing next to Josh McDaniels, scribbling info furiously while the sharper-eyed youngster relayed him the Jets' signs...would this have been considered acceptable? No way, right...?

2) I also concur with you that such taping was part of BB's research methods, and not intended for in-game alterations, either in that game or the next. That part is impossible for many oberservers to understand, because most of them don't do, and have never done, research; witness their sports columns, for example. Which makes the idea that there is a (melo)dramatic distinction in (1), between live scribbling and taping, all the more outrageous.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

It wasnt cheating until it the rule was imposed on sep. 6th 2006.

........ and it ceased to be cheating once it was discovered that it possibly went on with other teams. It's only classified as cheating if BB does it.....

Gotcha

In my previous post I was going by the attributed PFT blurb, which says "stealing". But let's look at the above quote. Does the quote I was supposed to read say filming? No. It says "stealing". In that context it probably means someone else filmed the signals, likely under the direction of the head coach whoever that was. Mudd then interpreted the signals, apparently. To me that is a MAJOR difference than Mudd filming signals.

The reason I pointed all this out, is that you are obviously trying to implicate the Colts, and while that may be true the info we have so far doesn't do so. In a previous job Mudd interpreted films ordered by someone else.

It's a place to start investigation if anyone wants to... if Florio is as impartial and above-board as he says he is he'll follow this line of
investigation as much or more than the Patriots one.

We call this parsing, JJ is obvious talking about Mudd in the context of videotaped stolen signals. That's what the discussion was about. Creatively edit it any way you like, you can't change the obvious implication being made.

 

[zoostation]

So says Jimmy Johnson, who also admitted to cheating (filming)

"Howard Mudd, who currently serves as the offensive line coach with the Colts, saying that Johnson "was the best in the entire league at stealing signals." He was talking about FILMING FILMING FILMING signals.....sorry for any miscommunication...

Doesn't really matter.....bit I read this as Johnson saying Mudd was the best in the entire league. Read the Q&A

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

Doesn't really matter.....bit I read this as Johnson saying Mudd was the best in the entire league. Read the Q&A

You know every time a camera is on the Colt's OC and DC....the game announcers usually refer to them as "crafty veterans".....?

Now it seems as though there is a little more to understanding what makes them so crafty....IMHO.

 

[nowayback]

i dont need rules to tell me what cheating is. any stealing of signals is cheating to me. whether with eyes or cams. its looking at someones cards. if there was a way to stop it...it should be stopped.
baseball whether someone is in cf or 2nd base is cheating.

so because cheating is allowed...all the pats did was break the rules.

 

[Pujo]

Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

Paying off a ref would be. Illegally placing a camera ? How about wearing the socks too high ? That's illegal too.

Why would paying off a ref be cheating? It's just a violation of the rules.

 

[Pujo]

Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

And to you is that the only form of cheating?

Pats cheated because, had they not filmed, they'd have slightly less of an advantage than with the videotape. Minor cheating? You bet, but cheating still. Does it tarnish anything they've done? Not a bit.

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

Why would paying off a ref be cheating? It's just a violation of the rules.

It's different to me because something like paying off the ref guarantees it'll help you (assuming he does his part). Stealing signs is hit and miss. It's a risk in and of itself. If you assume it helps if you know the sign, I'm good with that. But what if they change the signs or who the hot sign caller is ? Stealing signs is like making a bet - a good bet but a bet - it may help you but it may hurt you. Kind of like reading a defense.