No Proof that PATs Cheated

[JR4]

First need a good definition of cheating as proclaimed in recent news reports about the PATs.

In recent context it means the QB received reliable information,
not a guess, of what the opponent's defense was going to do.
That reliable information was obtained by some method not legally allowed
by the rules of the game.

Need to agree on grounds for cheating or can't go any further.
If someone has a better definition I'd like to hear it.

Assuming the above definition is Ok.


The key is getting reliable information of what the opponent's defense was going to do to the QB.
If such reliable information was ONLY obtained by an illegal method but never
made it to the QB then you have a rule violation but no cheating.

So did the Patriots cheat?
Did their QB get reliable information about what their opponents defense
was going to do using illegal methods.


I believe there is ABSOLUETLY No Proof of Cheating.


IF I am wrong about this Please somebody let me know.


No proof has ever been given that Patriots ever cheated.
They broke a rule. Yes but

Breaking a rule is Not same as Cheating.

1. A camera was illegally used to record information - Verified

2. Reliable information of what a defense was going
to do was derived from step 1. ... NO PROOF

3. The information from step 2 was communicated to the QB .... No PROOF

Conclusion: There is NO PROOF that PATs cheated.


Not only was there No proof for the JETs game but No proof for any game
PATs have ever played.

ALL these accusations of PATs cheating have been based on ASSUMPTION not PROOF!

 

[signbabybrady]

if you want to talk definitions than its not good.

cheat (chēt) Pronunciation Key
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

v. tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base. or in football to use a camera to steal signals

 

[mgteich]

You have your own definition of a media term that is not defined by the NFL.

Also, we have not seen anywhere near all the evidence. And just, BTW, using the camera during the game to get an idea as to Mangini's tendencies is absurd on its face. The team could have hired people to tape games in which we were not involved. Certainly decoding signals, hoping that this will help us in December is really reaching. Mangini had learned from Belichick. The code changes often.

First need a good definition of cheating as proclaimed in recent news reports about the PATs.

In recent context it means the QB received reliable information,
not a guess, of what the opponent's defense was going to do.
That reliable information was obtained by some method not legally allowed
by the rules of the game.

Need to agree on grounds for cheating or can't go any further.
If someone has a better definition I'd like to hear it.

Assuming the above definition is Ok.


The key is getting reliable information of what the opponent's defense was going to do to the QB.
If such reliable information was ONLY obtained by an illegal method but never
made it to the QB then you have a rule violation but no cheating.

So did the Patriots cheat?
Did their QB get reliable information about what their opponents defense
was going to do using illegal methods.


I believe there is ABSOLUETLY No Proof of Cheating.


IF I am wrong about this Please somebody let me know.


No proof has ever been given that Patriots ever cheated.
They broke a rule. Yes but

Breaking a rule is Not same as Cheating.

1. A camera was illegally used to record information - Verified

2. Reliable information of what a defense was going
to do was derived from step 1. ... NO PROOF

3. The information from step 2 was communicated to the QB .... No PROOF

Conclusion: There is NO PROOF that PATs cheated.


Not only was there No proof for the JETs game but No proof for any game
PATs have ever played.

ALL these accusations of PATs cheating have been based on ASSUMPTION not PROOF!

 

[JR4]

if you want to talk definitions than its not good.

cheat (chēt) Pronunciation Key
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

v. tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base. or in football to use a camera to steal signals

the camera was in plain sight. There was no deception, deprivation,
misleading or eluding done by the camera man. The Camera man
broke a rule.

" To violate rules deliberately, as in a game as accused of cheating at cards."
the implication is an unfair advantage was rendered "in a game".

the definition given in our context includes the concepts you gave from
dictionary .

 

[emoney_33]

if you want to talk definitions than its not good.

cheat (chēt) Pronunciation Key
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

v. tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base. or in football to use a camera to steal signals

Cool, so technically, play action passes, screens, trick plays etc.. are all cases of cheating. SAWEEEET

 

[pats_ftw!!1!]

First need a good definition of cheating as proclaimed in recent news reports about the PATs.

In recent context it means the QB received reliable information,
not a guess, of what the opponent's defense was going to do.
That reliable information was obtained by some method not legally allowed
by the rules of the game.

Need to agree on grounds for cheating or can't go any further.
If someone has a better definition I'd like to hear it.

Assuming the above definition is Ok.


The key is getting reliable information of what the opponent's defense was going to do to the QB.
If such reliable information was ONLY obtained by an illegal method but never
made it to the QB then you have a rule violation but no cheating.

So did the Patriots cheat?
Did their QB get reliable information about what their opponents defense
was going to do using illegal methods.


I believe there is ABSOLUETLY No Proof of Cheating.


IF I am wrong about this Please somebody let me know.


No proof has ever been given that Patriots ever cheated.
They broke a rule. Yes but

Breaking a rule is Not same as Cheating.

1. A camera was illegally used to record information - Verified

2. Reliable information of what a defense was going
to do was derived from step 1. ... NO PROOF

3. The information from step 2 was communicated to the QB .... No PROOF

Conclusion: There is NO PROOF that PATs cheated.


Not only was there No proof for the JETs game but No proof for any game
PATs have ever played.

ALL these accusations of PATs cheating have been based on ASSUMPTION not PROOF!

we broke the rules

 

[JR4]

You have your own definition of a media term that is not defined by the NFL.
.........

EXACTLY RIGHT! they use that word but never establish that it has happened or ever happened.
They no PROOF that Brady ever got useful information because PATs
broke a rule .... they just ASSUME he did and then conclude PATS cheated.

 

[Danny Boy®]

IF I am wrong about this Please somebody let me know.

Well....considering that Krafty and BB are paying $750k and losing a number 1 pick...I think you may be a bit off.

 

[patpatriot]

JR, give it up. This ain't about truth. This is about burning witches.

 

[Redcell]

JR, give it up. This ain't about truth. This is about burning witches.

Amen to that. Don't forget that perception is reality.

 

[pats_ftw!!1!]

EXACTLY RIGHT! they use that word but never establish that it has happened or ever happened.
They no PROOF that Brady ever got useful information because PATs
broke a rule .... they just ASSUME he did and then conclude PATS cheated.

honestly, im sure you love the pats and all, but how do you not see a correlation between breaking the rules in this fashion and cheating? now im not saying it is as big of deal as the media is making it out to be, but it is still cheating.

 

[JR4]

Well....considering that Krafty and BB are paying $750k and losing a number 1 pick...I think you may be a bit off.

This fact does not mean they cheated. Have you seen convincing proof
Brady ever got useful information from PATs breaking a rule.

They got hit so very hard for breaking rule. The Comish even said
that what they did no way affected the outcome of the game.
This means Brady did not get any useful information. The fine
are for breaking the rule ... not for cheating.

 

[mgteich]

Most pat fans continue to be in denial. Robert Kraft isn't.

JR, give it up. This ain't about truth. This is about burning witches.

 

[emoney_33]

honestly, im sure you love the pats and all, but how do you not see a correlation between breaking the rules in this fashion and cheating? now im not saying it is as big of deal as the media is making it out to be, but it is still cheating.

Sorry but that is like saying purchasing a gun is murder... No we didn't cheat, thanks

 

[CheerforTom]

You are right, for the record. Jaws was just on MNF going on about how much of an advantage it is when the quarterback knows what the defense is going to do, and even gave an example from when he was playing.

It's incredibly misleading of him because, like you say JR, there's no proof whatsoever that the Patriots have done anything resembling that. What there IS proof of is that we taped the sidelines, nothing more. All these accusations of cheating are not backed up by anything besides sensationalism and bitterness towards New England. That doesn't acquit us of anything, but it sure as hell doesn't convict us either. I've wondered more than once through all of this where 'innocent until proven guilty' has been.

The media has been incredibly unfair and deceitful about cameragate, and I for one just can't wait for it to end. The only ones sticking up for the Patriots either come off as radicals or homers. We DID break the rules, there is absolutely no denying that... but there's absolutely no denying that we were punished (heavily, in context) for it, thus making that fact irrelevant.

 

[Sundayjack]

I believe there is ABSOLUETLY No Proof of Cheating.


IF I am wrong about this Please somebody let me know.


No proof has ever been given that Patriots ever cheated.
They broke a rule. Yes but

Breaking a rule is Not same as Cheating.

1. A camera was illegally used to record information - Verified

2. Reliable information of what a defense was going
to do was derived from step 1. ... NO PROOF

3. The information from step 2 was communicated to the QB .... No PROOF

Conclusion: There is NO PROOF that PATs cheated.


Not only was there No proof for the JETs game but No proof for any game
PATs have ever played.

ALL these accusations of PATs cheating have been based on ASSUMPTION not PROOF!

So, your issue is more with parlance. Okay, I can buy that. Words have currency. And, if your point has any merit, the Commissioner should spend some time defining terms for everyone.

But, this goes back to a point I made earlier this morning about Patriots damage control. Don't get me wrong, I love the story, because I'm on the other side and I enjoy the drama. Putting on my objective hat, though, both the Patriots and the Commissioner have a problem - they're letting anyone with a typewriter or a microphone define the story with conjecture. NO ONE has told the true extent of the story. So, given the license to guess, people are running with it. Wiretapping. Frequency jamming. Video feeds. Hand signals. Wired linebackers. Eavesdropping. Rifling through dressing room trash. Talking heads and C-student sports scribes are going NUTS with this story because the Patriots and the Commissioner's Office are letting them.

Your problem isn't defining terms. It's much much worse than that.

 

[emoney_33]

Most pat fans continue to be in denial. Robert Kraft isn't.

Kraft has to think about PR, and the patriots image. We do not. It doesn't matter if Kraft is 100% sure that nothing went wrong, it is how the masses perceive it. He's a businessman, we are fans.

 

[Metaphors]

To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

Assuming you were zooming in on this definition. The problem with this definition is that a video camera restriction is not a "rule of the game", but a policy around which the game is administered. You can remove the policy and the game is played by the exact same rules. Belichick didn't follow a policy he didn't believe in (civil disobedience) rather than accept a rule as being valid and choose to "violate" it (with a presumption of trying to "get away with something").

It is all words parsing, but I think the key point is that Belichick is neither evil or stupid. His method of protest didn't yield the result he wanted, but there was a method to his madness.

As an aside, in that Nike commercial with Merriman and Stephen Jackson...WTF is that Steeler defensive lineman (#93) doing at the end? Hey I'm not saying, I'm just saying... If I were Nick Eason, I'd be pissed.

 

[420jim]

Most pat fans continue to be in denial. Robert Kraft isn't.

I'm not in denial, the patriots ATTEMPTED to cheat. However the tape was taken before they had a chance to use it. Just like in highschool, if you made a cheat sheet for the test but had it taken away before hand and still passed the test, you didn't cheat, you ATTEMPTED to cheat

 

[Danny Boy®]

This fact does not mean they cheated. Have you seen convincing proof
Brady ever got useful information from PATs breaking a rule.

So if a guy robs a bank but doesnt spend the money, hes innocent?

Pats got caught cheating.