A Jets Fan perspective...

[jetsfanri]

Fascinating week, if nothing else it is very entertaining. Obviously, this is a tough situation for Pats fans, wanted to offer a different perspective.

There seem to be several "camps", each leading to some questions.

- Camp 1 is the "even if they did it, it couldn't help them camp". I have no idea how or if it did help them, but it begs the question...why do it if it didn't add value?

- Camp 2 is the "everyone does it, we just got caught" camp. If everyone does it, why have so many coaches been vocal about suspecting the Pats in the past? I mean, raising your voice against this and then doing it anyway is kind of a Rafael Palmero type of thing..they risk looking ridiculous if they got caught.

- Camp 3 is "Mangini will suffer the consequences" camp. BB has few friends among coaches. He hates his long time boss (Parcells), has had run ins with several other coaches. I struggle with the idea that Mangini will be castigated by other teams or coaches for pointing out a clearly illegal activity.

- Camp 4 the "I am embarrassed" camp. I don't think you can chalk 3 superbowl rings up to stealing signals. While it certainly throws a shadow of doubt over past success, ultimately the joy a Pats fan felt at winning can't be taken away. And while some may want otherwise, my bet is you'll get to keep those trophies.

- Finally, I think there is a big difference between stealing signs with the naked eye and using video equipment in a real time fashion. That the Pats were warned and suspected previously yet continued to do it shows an arrogance that is, I think, the root of so much of the anti-pats sentiment that seems to be coming out.

So you'll lose a few picks and BB will be suspended a game or two. Meanwhile, you are still 1-0 with a lot of talent. Live through the mess and enjoy the rest of the season.

 

[JDSal45]

There is a subdivision of the "is it any use" camp. I personally believe its for FUTURE use, not use the day it is filmed. I don't see any realistic alternative and have gone over the logistics in my head many times. It has to be for future, not game day use.

As for Belichick and Parcells hating each other? They don't. They patched things up and even went to baseball spring training together in 2006. I remember seeing the photographs of them watching games together.

Here is a story confirming it:

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/?p=435

J D Sal

 

[cblesz]

Camp 5 - Nobody really cares what you think. And yes, Mangina will now be known as a rat as several ex players and coaches have said this is something that everyone does. In addition, it does not matter what other coaches think. What matters is that Mangina ratted on a coach who gave him his opportunity...he basically stabbed him in the back. That is the problem with your rat coach. Anyway, hope Mangina enjoys his 6-10 season...

 

[PonyExpress]

You forgot this camp: Mangini unjustifiably tarnished the accomplishments of all the people who made him what he is over an obviously trivial incident. What do his insinuations, on their face ridiculous, mean to the careers of Romeo Crennel, Charlie Weis, Robert Kraft, among others? This was an act of supreme ingratitude, to smear the people who nurtured him to becoming a millionaire, simply because he's a sore loser. That's my camp, and it will be swelling with people when the truth about these accusations slowly emerges. Unfortunately for your immature and foolish HC, there are no do-overs in the public sphere. What he has done cannot be undone, and he has unjustifiably hurt many many people. A total disgrace. My guess is right about now, the juvenile elation of nabbing the Pats camera man is wearing off, and it is dawning on Mangini the gravity of what he's done. He's beginning to question himself, and some foolish friends are telling him he "did the right thing". But in the coming hours he's going to relaize he made the biggest mistake of his life.

 

[jetsfanri]

Camp 5 - Nobody really cares what you think. And yes, Mangina will now be known as a rat as several ex players and coaches have said this is something that everyone does. In addition, it does not matter what other coaches think. What matters is that Mangina ratted on a coach who gave him his opportunity...he basically stabbed him in the back. That is the problem with your rat coach. Anyway, hope Mangina enjoys his 6-10 season...

If you don't care, why reply?

 

[AtivanPatsFan]

- Camp 2 is the "everyone does it, we just got caught" camp. If everyone does it, why have so many coaches been vocal about suspecting the Pats in the past? I mean, raising your voice against this and then doing it anyway is kind of a Rafael Palmero type of thing..they risk looking ridiculous if they got caught.

This one particularly got to me. It's simple. A group of people are all doing something they shouldn't be doing. Yet somehow, someone gets caught in the act and is in the process of due punishment.

Would any HC, in their right mind, come out and say "No, this is wrong, every team does this so it's ok."

Unlike others on this board, I respect the AFC East and I like to see each team to succeed, obviously the Pats far, FAR more than any other. But still, who would actually have the cajoles to come out and say that this is okay?

 

[unoriginal]

Like many of the more leniant commentators in the media have said, I don't think the video thing is about a real-time advantage, it is about building up a history of signal tendancies - who is live? what signals usually mean what? what's the normal order? - that make deciphering signals easier in the future.

As Belichick kind of intimated, it is "advance scouting" being done at the current game. If video helped the Pats in last week's game, it is because the Pats videotaped the signals at their three games last year.

Other than that your post is solid. I'm in another camp entirely however; the "it's a slight advantage" camp. Something that should stop, but isn't asterisk-worthy, like the 49ers and Broncs of yore cheating the salary cap.

I also suspect there are many points of emphasis the NFL sends memos about each year that don't get enforced, which is probably why the Pats willfully ignored this memo. To put it in visual terms, I see it as Belichick crumpling up the memo and throwing it in the trash, rather than Belichick stroking his white cat and playing with his moustache as he has the memo slowly incinerated in an oven.

 

[TeamFirst]

Mangina used this to take the attention away from himself and his horrible coaching and how his team wasn't prepared to play the Patriots on Sunday and got spanked.

I wonder what coverage Mangina called,whom the Pats alleged stolen signs that was able to let Moss smoke past 3 Jets Defenders for a touchdown.

Ohh and then there is that 108 KO return for a TD that the pats must have stole the signs for aswell.

Another Jets fan living in fantasyland.

 

[jetsfanri]

You forgot this camp: Mangini unjustifiably tarnished the accomplishments of all the people who made him what he is over an obviously trivial incident. What do his insinuations, on their face ridiculous, mean to the careers of Romeo Crennel, Charlie Weis, Robert Kraft, among others? This was an act of supreme ingratitude, to smear the people who nurtured him to becoming a millionaire, simply because he's a sore loser. That's my camp, and it will be swelling with people when the truth about these accusations slowly emerges. Unfortunately for your immature and foolish HC, there are no do-overs in the public sphere. What he has done cannot be undone, and he has unjustifiably hurt many many people. A total disgrace.

Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel have the opportunity to make their own names, as does Mangini. Crennel has done more to damage his career with his performance as a HC than this incident could ever provide.

You state how the truth will emerge...how do you know what it is? What if they have done this for every game for 5 years, and have an archive of signals of other teams? What if they find out that the Pats have been jamming the helmet signals for the same time period?

Truthfully, I hope it is an innocent as you think, but a lot of information points otherwise.

Your anger at Mangini is like a mob anger at someone who turns...no crime, nothing to "squeal" about.

 

[jetsfanri]

Mangina used this to take the attention away from himself and his horrible coaching and how his team wasn't prepared to play the Patriots on Sunday and got spanked.

I wonder what coverage Mangina called,whom the Pats alleged stolen signs that was able to let Moss smoke past 3 Jets Defenders for a touchdown.

Ohh and then there is that 108 KO return for a TD that the pats must have stole the signs for aswell.

Another Jets fan living in fantasyland.

What fantasy land? I was at the game, the Pats won, and I doubt it was due to stolen signals.

Mangini could go 0-16 this year, his job is intact. He doesn't need to take attention away from himself...he actually said exactly what BB says when they lose (none of us did a good job, coaches included).

I think the fantasy is that this is totally innocent...if it is of no value, the risk far outweighs the reward.

 

[PonyExpress]

Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel have the opportunity to make their own names, as does Mangini. Crennel has done more to damage his career with his performance as a HC than this incident could ever provide.

You state how the truth will emerge...how do you know what it is? What if they have done this for every game for 5 years, and have an archive of signals of other teams? What if they find out that the Pats have been jamming the helmet signals for the same time period?

Truthfully, I hope it is an innocent as you think, but a lot of information points otherwise.

Your anger at Mangini is like a mob anger at someone who turns...no crime, nothing to "squeal" about.

You ask how I know this hasn't occurred. How do you know it has? You have proof, supposedly, from only one video tape. Nor have you even demonstrated that this tape was used for in game adjustments. For all anyone knows, the recording was made for post game review. The only one arguing otherwise is a direct competitor of the Patriots with reason to lie. After all, Mangini has shown zero scruples since taking the reins of your team. See the Pete Kendall incident, the way he intentionally humiliated him at training camp, then claimed it was an accident to the press. Your whole perspective is based on a series of assumptions on the truthfulness of your own Head Coach. Why should we believe in Mangini more than BB?

As for Charlie et.al., the reason they have their current jobs is because of past accomplishments. Mangini's wild slander unjustifiably throws in question the validity io those accomplishments, undermining them with their ownership and fan base. Your refusal to see this makes you as blind to his folly as you claim I am to BB's.

 

[Direwolf57]

This one particularly got to me. It's simple. A group of people are all doing something they shouldn't be doing. Yet somehow, someone gets caught in the act and is in the process of due punishment.

Would any HC, in their right mind, come out and say "No, this is wrong, every team does this so it's ok."

Unlike others on this board, I respect the AFC East and I like to see each team to succeed, obviously the Pats far, FAR more than any other. But still, who would actually have the cajoles to come out and say that this is okay?

No, but in cases like this the norm is for coaches to "wait for the league's ruling" No one ever comments....until now! Several are lining up against BB which is very unusual, and they're not all sore losers! Where there's smoke there's fire! BB out of the league in 2 years!

 

[jetsfanri]

You ask how I know this hasn't occurred. How do you know it has? You have proof, supposedly, from only one video tape. Nor have you even demonstrated that this tape was used for in game adjustments. For all anyone knows, the recording was made for post game review. The only one arguing otherwise is a direct competitor of the Patriots with reason to lie. After all, Mangini has shown zero scruples since taking the reins of your team. See the Pete Kendall incident, the way he intentionally humiliated him at training camp, then claimed it was an accident to the press. Your whole perspective is based on a series of assumptions on the truthfulness of your own Head Coach. Why should we believe in Mangini more than BB?

As for Charlie et.al., the reason they have their current jobs is because of past accomplishments. Mangini's wild slander unjustifiably throws in question the validity io those accomplishments, undermining them with their ownership and fan base. Your refusal to see this makes you as blind to his folly as you claim I am to BB's.

Why believe Mangini more than BB...
- Cheats on wife with secretary
- Takes a $1million bonus to remain with Jets from late Leon Hess, resigns as HC one day into the job after having already negotiated a contract with NE
- Prevents his assistants from interviewing for HC jobs until NFL puts in a rule that forces it to be allowed
- Threatens to retaliate if Brad Childress has the audacity to pick up one of his cuts instead of parking him on the Pats practice squad

BB is a great coach, but a saint he is not.

 

[TeamFirst]

Why believe Mangini more than BB...
- Cheats on wife with secretary
- Takes a $1million bonus to remain with Jets from late Leon Hess, resigns as HC one day into the job after having already negotiated a contract with NE
- Prevents his assistants from interviewing for HC jobs until NFL puts in a rule that forces it to be allowed
- Threatens to retaliate if Brad Childress has the audacity to pick up one of his cuts instead of parking him on the Pats practice squad

BB is a great coach, but a saint he is not.

Your HC just ratted out a guy and the organization that gave him the expierience and the tools to become a HC in the NFL.

Mangina better pray he will be a Jet for the rest of his career because he will never ever find another job in the NFL.

The diffrence between Mangina and BB is that you can trust BB wont rat you out cause he lost.

That in my estimation is far worse than anything BB has ever done and will do.

 

[PonyExpress]

Why believe Mangini more than BB...
- Cheats on wife with secretary
- Takes a $1million bonus to remain with Jets from late Leon Hess, resigns as HC one day into the job after having already negotiated a contract with NE
- Prevents his assistants from interviewing for HC jobs until NFL puts in a rule that forces it to be allowed
- Threatens to retaliate if Brad Childress has the audacity to pick up one of his cuts instead of parking him on the Pats practice squad

BB is a great coach, but a saint he is not.

As i have said elsewhere, this issue is not really about this petty incident. it is about the dislike you hold for BB himself, reflected in your post. Fans like you, as well as coaches and organizations, can't stand the idea that this person they dislike continues to kick their @$$. The rest is bu11$hite, an excuse to tear the man down. The consequences of this lynch mob is that many innocent people who have accomplished extraordinary thing are being tarnished by your hypotheses, insinuations and innuendo, based on zero evidence beyond hearsay. The culprit in this onslaught is your caoch, who is far from the saint you wish to believe. And right now he is not sleeping well, because the consequences of his actions are starting to dawn on him.

 

[nukin]

Camp 5 - "I'm a jet's fan who thinks he can stir some stuff on on a pats forum with 'Intelligent' thought but I just come out looking like a bigger idiot then anyone". This camp is comprised of NY jets trolls coming on to be ****stirrers - when the fact is, BB will not be suspended, losing draft picks will be unlikely, everyone does something similar, the pats have not had any players arrested like worse teams out there, and the pats have not been warned previously.

 

[jetsfanri]

Camp 5 - "I'm a jet's fan who thinks he can stir some stuff on on a pats forum with 'Intelligent' thought but I just come out looking like a bigger idiot then anyone". This camp is comprised of NY jets trolls coming on to be ****stirrers - when the fact is, BB will not be suspended, losing draft picks will be unlikely, everyone does something similar, the pats have not had any players arrested like worse teams out there, and the pats have not been warned previously.

So a messageboard is reserved for rah rah homers who are totally blind to the fact that their coach did something against the rules?

Which part of my post makes me an idiot? The point I made that the signal theft didn't cause the Jets to lose? Or was it the point I made that the Pats are still 1-0? Or maybe it's that I said BB is a great coach, but not a saint?

What should we bet on BB being suspended or draft picks being lost? How about if he gets suspended or the Pats lose draft picks you pen the apology to Jets fans on a Jets board...I will do the same here if he gets off without any punishment.

 

[jetsfanri]

As i have said elsewhere, this issue is not really about this petty incident. it is about the dislike you hold for BB himself, reflected in your post. Fans like you, as well as coaches and organizations, can't stand the idea that this person they dislike continues to kick their @$$. The rest is bu11$hite, an excuse to tear the man down. The consequences of this lynch mob is that many innocent people who have accomplished extraordinary thing are being tarnished by your hypotheses, insinuations and innuendo, based on zero evidence beyond hearsay. The culprit in this onslaught is your caoch, who is far from the saint you wish to believe. And right now he is not sleeping well, because the consequences of his actions are starting to dawn on him.

I don't dislike BB, I don't even know him. I do know that if he needs illegal help to win (and you can not dispute this activity is illegal, regardless of how impactful you think it is) it calls into question his ethics and ultimately his ability ..which is sad because I think he is a great coach.

A videotape confiscated at the time of production and sealed in a box for review is not hearsay...it is about as ironclad as you can get in the evidence world.

Mangini is not the issue, and I'm curious what consequences are dawning on him? BB already "disowned" him, so this is no change. Other coaches dislike BB already, no change there. Mangini still has his job, his contract, his wife, his kids, and now the approval of 90% of the country for catching BB in the act.

You can deflect all you want, but the issue is that BB did something wrong and now is facing unpleasant consequences.

 

[PonyExpress]

I don't dislike BB, I don't even know him. I do know that if he needs illegal help to win (and you can not dispute this activity is illegal, regardless of how impactful you think it is) it calls into question his ethics and ultimately his ability ..which is sad because I think he is a great coach.

A videotape confiscated at the time of production and sealed in a box for review is not hearsay...it is about as ironclad as you can get in the evidence world.

Mangini is not the issue, and I'm curious what consequences are dawning on him? BB already "disowned" him, so this is no change. Other coaches dislike BB already, no change there. Mangini still has his job, his contract, his wife, his kids, and now the approval of 90% of the country for catching BB in the act.

You can deflect all you want, but the issue is that BB did something wrong and now is facing unpleasant consequences.

So you say. When this is settled it will turn out that Mangini is a rank hypocrite, an ingrate and a phony. And you will run and hide.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

I don't dislike BB, I don't even know him. I do know that if he needs illegal help to win (and you can not dispute this activity is illegal, regardless of how impactful you think it is) it calls into question his ethics and ultimately his ability ..which is sad because I think he is a great coach.

A videotape confiscated at the time of production and sealed in a box for review is not hearsay...it is about as ironclad as you can get in the evidence world.

Mangini is not the issue, and I'm curious what consequences are dawning on him? BB already "disowned" him, so this is no change. Other coaches dislike BB already, no change there. Mangini still has his job, his contract, his wife, his kids, and now the approval of 90% of the country for catching BB in the act.

You can deflect all you want, but the issue is that BB did something wrong and now is facing unpleasant consequences.

Hey jetsfanri, do me a favor............ go to THIS THREAD and read it start to finish. Tell me what you think.

That's why you have to be real careful when crying foul, there are too many cameras and too many people watching it to get away with anything these days.

Tell me it wouldn't be Ironic if Mangina was guilty of doing the EXACT same thing, at the EXACT same game the he's crying about BB doing it?