A few additional points to ponder

[pats1]

A few additional points to ponder [Update: PFT's sources catch on]

As a follow-up to my earlier thread.

1) As I told a member in a PM this morning, this charge was simply a tool up Mangini's sleeve (and really up every coach's sleeve). I think it's pretty fair to say this type of videotaping activity goes a good deal throughout the NFL every week. Every coach knows about it. Every coach knows he's being watched someway or somehow (hence many coaches using their callsheets to cover their mouths). However, this is one of those rules that the NFL warns teams about (they issued a memo about it this offseason) but never actually enforces -- just like dress code restrictions, collusion (Florio's favorite), and numerous other ticky-tack "rules" that are in place.

Mangini decided this was the week he was going to use this taping rule and see how much he could knock the Pats' focus off preparing for the Jets. Believe me, there was no way in hell this comes out if the Jets win last weekend. Mangini simply uses it when he sees fit.

But there's the problem. Every team has this trick up their sleeve. And since the Jets made such a big fuss over this one, they've actually gotten themselves in their own corner:

Teams are not happy right now with the Jets!

Why, you ask? Because they've made a stink so rank that Goodell is left with no choice but to enforce the rule (that is, if BB's interpretation doesn't hold up). Now, this means that, if the Pats are penalized for this, the NFL will be forced to penalize each and every team that is henceforth found guilty of this videotaping. So, instantly, all of the Pats' opponents the rest of this season are stripped of their "secret" weapon, because all the Pats have to do is walk up, confiscate the camera, and have that team face the punishment.

The Jets have set a dangerous precedent.

All it takes is one team to confiscate another's camera and the motion is set in cycle (the Packers did it last year but apparently never formally reported it). In a way, it's collusion (oOoO that's illegal too) between all 32 NFL teams. If team A doesn't mess with team B's taping operation, vice versa won't occur. Teams simply have to find ways to protect their signals.

2) We all heard Tomlin's and Tomlinson's (ironic nomenclature...) comments this week about how they've heard about the Pats "cheating" in the past. And most of us Patsfans have heard enough from other teams as well, be it the Belichick shuffle against Marvin Harrison in the 2003/4 AFC Championship, or the "chucking" in SB XXXVI before Polian's Posse enacted that rule too.

But let's clear something up. Do the Patriots "cheat?" Well, this is a question I raised before with the author of that "Super Bowl XXXVI was fixed" site. Is exploiting gray areas of the rules "cheating?" Is pushing the rules as far as they can go "cheating?" Is breaking an un-enforced rule "cheating?" I say not. As BB said in his statement today, his interpretation of the rule is different than Goodell's. Now, I heard on 'EEI today that there apparently is something about "accessibility to coaches during the game" that BB could be talking about (i.e. the video that was being shot "illegally" wasn't accessible to him during the game). So I'd certainly call that a gray area. And hey, maybe L.T. was right:

The teams that are most successful (like the Patriots) are those who "cheat."

 

[Gwedd]

Pats1,

I would also like to add that no one outside of a VERY small circle knows exactly what happened, what was actually reported, and what is being considered.

The only FACTS we have at present are that the JETS accused the Patriots of a rule(s) infraction involving a camera of some type. Coach Bellichick has spoken to League officials regarding his interpretation of the rule(s). The league is examining the evidence and will make some sort of decision regarding something at some point. Everything else is pure conjecture, and I mean EVERYTHING.

Not a single reporter, "source" ex-player, or other talking head knows the full story. They are all just playing with the same set of facts, making it up as they go and spinning it to support their own fantasies and agendas, and we KNOW that certain reporters and NFL coaches and front office folks have some very Anti-Patriot agendas.

Until the league itself actually puts out a specific statement, we all should just put this whole issue aside and get on with football. :rocker:

Respects,

 

[richpats]

The NFL will save face by toughening the rule on videotaping. Maybe Belichick did expose the rule and challenged the spirit of the rule, but in his mind he certainly didn't "break" it and perhaps technically he didn't.

I think his "misinterpretation" comment is a good hint on what is to come. If you misinterpret a rule there is usually some leeway given, as opposed to flat-out breaking the rule.

EDIT: I still think the NFL will use this to scare teams out of using cameras, as opposed to harshly punishing the Pats. Look at the PR disaster for the Pats-that is bad enough. If it can happen to them it can happen to anyone except the Colts

 

[PonyExpress]

Pats1 is right on target. If the tape was inaccessible to BB, it wasn't governed by the rules. And if it was...it's standard NFL gamesmanship in a league of unenforced regulations and codes of silence. This story is the biggest tempest in a teapot I've seen. The enduring lesson of this charade is ManGina is a whiny byatch.

 

[pats1]

Pats1,

I would also like to add that no one outside of a VERY small circle knows exactly what happened, what was actually reported, and what is being considered.

The only FACTS we have at present are that the JETS accused the Patriots of a rule(s) infraction involving a camera of some type. Coach Bellichick has spoken to League officials regarding his interpretation of the rule(s). The league is examining the evidence and will make some sort of decision regarding something at some point. Everything else is pure conjecture, and I mean EVERYTHING.

Not a single reporter, "source" ex-player, or other talking head knows the full story. They are all just playing with the same set of facts, making it up as they go and spinning it to support their own fantasies and agendas, and we KNOW that certain reporters and NFL coaches and front office folks have some very Anti-Patriot agendas.

Until the league itself actually puts out a specific statement, we all should just put this whole issue aside and get on with football. :rocker:

Respects,

Yeah, I guess I'm being a bit hypocritical.

 

[Pats726]

It's funny what is being called CHEATING...I've heard so many comentators say getting to know what the D is doing is cheating...and yet doing that via coaches..DOING that..is not considered cheating..seems VERY hypocritical. IF getting to know the is cheating, it's cheating NO MATTER what method is used..it MAY be legal..but if one complains that KNOWING the D is cheating clearly IT IS!!! They would be nore credible if they just said the Patriots were using a camera and ended it there and MADE THAT the point as oppposed to what many think they were going to use that for...(even though it would be impossible time wise...).

 

[PonyExpress]

It's funny what is being called CHEATING...I've heard so many comentators say getting to know what the D is doing is cheating...and yet doing that via coaches..DOING that..is not considered cheating..seems VERY hypocritical. IF getting to know the is cheating, it's cheating NO MATTER what method is used..it MAY be legal..but if one complains that KNOWING the D is cheating clearly IT IS!!! They would be nore credible if they just said the Patriots were using a camera and ended it there and MADE THAT the point as oppposed to what many think they were going to use that for...(even though it would be impossible time wise...).

The reason they use the word "cheating" is because these rockheads have limited vocabularies and don't know the word "gamesmanship". it's a sad illustration of how ignorance can inadvertently smear an innocent man and team.

 

[mgteich]

Violating the rules is cheating. If using a telescope is legal, then it is legal. And no, it's not cheating. yes, the rules should be changed, yes they should be enforced, yes MLB should be able to receive signals in their helmets. And yes, all this irrelevant. Belichick enjoys sticking it in the Commissioner's face. He acts as if he is above the rules. And yes, he even thinks that his interpretations of the rules that he was trying to get around matter at all.

The Patriots can certainly take the position that they are willing to openly break rules in the hope that their blatant example will get the NFL to change the rules. I think that this is a losing tactic.

It's funny what is being called CHEATING...I've heard so many comentators say getting to know what the D is doing is cheating...and yet doing that via coaches..DOING that..is not considered cheating..seems VERY hypocritical. IF getting to know the is cheating, it's cheating NO MATTER what method is used..it MAY be legal..but if one complains that KNOWING the D is cheating clearly IT IS!!! They would be nore credible if they just said the Patriots were using a camera and ended it there and MADE THAT the point as oppposed to what many think they were going to use that for...(even though it would be impossible time wise...).

 

[pats1]

Hey, PFT's sources are finally picking up on pretty much exactly what I said in this thread:

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

POSTED 7:48 p.m. EDT; UPDATED 8:40 p.m. EDT, September 12, 2007​

MANGINI: HERO OR HEEL?​

Rich Cimini of the New York Daily News reports that the Patriots' efforts to videotape defensive signals was brought to light by former New England defensive coordinator Eric Mangini, who shared the information in 2006 with members of the Jets' organization. ​

"When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do," a source told Cimini. "Bill [Belichick] is going to be [ticked] at Eric. He kissed and told."​

It would be easy to proclaim that Mangini did the right thing, ignoring the good-old-boys' network and bringing to light Belichick's dirty little secret.​

But it would naive to do so, too.​

Mangini didn't blow the whistle when he first learned of the situation, while Mangini was working for the Patriots. Instead, he took advantage of the competitive advantage, and parlayed it into a head-coaching job of his own.​

And then Mangini blew the whistle in a manner that will eventually create for him a competitive advantage, since it will result in the imposition of some sort of a sanction on the Patriots.​

But should Mangini be allowed to have it both ways? And did he bother to consider whether bringing this situation to light might indirectly call into question his own credentials to be a head coach?​

Meanwhile, there's talk in league circles that Mangini will find it very hard to win the trust of anyone in the NFL moving forward. Even though Belichick has no cause to gripe about getting caught under circumstances where he knew that the opposing head coach knew what Belichick was doing, the truth is that anyone who chooses to confide in Mangini now or in the future will do so at his own peril.​

Keep that in mind, Mike Tannenbaum, if/when you ever consider doing something like, say, contacting the agent for a player who is under contract with another team.​

​

 

[PromisedLand]

You make some very good points there, pats1. I especially like the one about how it is in everyone's best interest not to blow the whistle on one another and have the league enforce the ticky-tack rules. Here's my way of looking at it:

Almost all of us "cheat" the speed limit, right? Honestly now, if the speed limit is 60, how many of us slow down under 65? Not too many. (So we are all "cheaters" against a rule intended to reduce the number of deaths and injuries on the highways.)

But do we call the cops on our cell phones to blow the whistle on everyone else who is breaking the rules just as we are? Of course not, because if enough people did that it would lead to stricter enforcement and we would all need to slow down, or get more tickets.

Why does this situation exist? The cops and the lawmakers certainly know that everyone cheats on the speed limits at least a little. But they do little about it, because they really don't want people to drive 60, they want them to stay under 70. They know that it's human nature to cross the line a little bit, but most people won't go too far over it. And they want to have the discretion to stop almost anyone who truly appears to be driving to endanger - a charge much more subjective and harder to prove.

This is exactly the same situation as the NFL. Everyone cheats a little, everyone knows everyone cheats a little, and everyone winks at it because they don't want to create a situation where the league is forced to enforce the rules strictly. Too late, Man-genius has broken the code of silence.

As a follow-up to my earlier thread.

1) As I told a member in a PM this morning, this charge was simply a tool up Mangini's sleeve (and really up every coach's sleeve). I think it's pretty fair to say this type of videotaping activity goes a good deal throughout the NFL every week. Every coach knows about it. Every coach knows he's being watched someway or somehow (hence many coaches using their callsheets to cover their mouths). However, this is one of those rules that the NFL warns teams about (they issued a memo about it this offseason) but never actually enforces -- just like dress code restrictions, collusion (Florio's favorite), and numerous other ticky-tack "rules" that are in place.

Mangini decided this was the week he was going to use this taping rule and see how much he could knock the Pats' focus off preparing for the Jets. Believe me, there was no way in hell this comes out if the Jets win last weekend. Mangini simply uses it when he sees fit.

But there's the problem. Every team has this trick up their sleeve. And since the Jets made such a big fuss over this one, they've actually gotten themselves in their own corner:

Teams are not happy right now with the Jets!

Why, you ask? Because they've made a stink so rank that Goodell is left with no choice but to enforce the rule (that is, if BB's interpretation doesn't hold up). Now, this means that, if the Pats are penalized for this, the NFL will be forced to penalize each and every team that is henceforth found guilty of this videotaping. So, instantly, all of the Pats' opponents the rest of this season are stripped of their "secret" weapon, because all the Pats have to do is walk up, confiscate the camera, and have that team face the punishment.

The Jets have set a dangerous precedent.

All it takes is one team to confiscate another's camera and the motion is set in cycle (the Packers did it last year but apparently never formally reported it). In a way, it's collusion (oOoO that's illegal too) between all 32 NFL teams. If team A doesn't mess with team B's taping operation, vice versa won't occur. Teams simply have to find ways to protect their signals.

2) We all heard Tomlin's and Tomlinson's (ironic nomenclature...) comments this week about how they've heard about the Pats "cheating" in the past. And most of us Patsfans have heard enough from other teams as well, be it the Belichick shuffle against Marvin Harrison in the 2003/4 AFC Championship, or the "chucking" in SB XXXVI before Polian's Posse enacted that rule too.

But let's clear something up. Do the Patriots "cheat?" Well, this is a question I raised before with the author of that "Super Bowl XXXVI was fixed" site. Is exploiting gray areas of the rules "cheating?" Is pushing the rules as far as they can go "cheating?" Is breaking an un-enforced rule "cheating?" I say not. As BB said in his statement today, his interpretation of the rule is different than Goodell's. Now, I heard on 'EEI today that there apparently is something about "accessibility to coaches during the game" that BB could be talking about (i.e. the video that was being shot "illegally" wasn't accessible to him during the game). So I'd certainly call that a gray area. And hey, maybe L.T. was right:

The teams that are most successful (like the Patriots) are those who "cheat."

 

[pats1]

You make some very good points there, pats1. I especially like the one about how it is in everyone's best interest not to blow the whistle on one another and have the league enforce the ticky-tack rules. Here's my way of looking at it:

Almost all of us "cheat" the speed limit, right? Honestly now, if the speed limit is 60, how many of us slow down under 65? Not too many. (So we are all "cheaters" against a rule intended to reduce the number of deaths and injuries on the highways.)

But do we call the cops on our cell phones to blow the whistle on everyone else who is breaking the rules just as we are? Of course not, because if enough people did that it would lead to stricter enforcement and we would all need to slow down, or get more tickets.

Why does this situation exist? The cops and the lawmakers certainly know that everyone cheats on the speed limits at least a little. But they do little about it, because they really don't want people to drive 60, they want them to stay under 70. They know that it's human nature to cross the line a little bit, but most people won't go too far over it. And they want to have the discretion to stop almost anyone who truly appears to be driving to endanger - a charge much more subjective and harder to prove.

This is exactly the same situation as the NFL. Everyone cheats a little, everyone knows everyone cheats a little, and everyone winks at it because they don't want to create a situation where the league is forced to enforce the rules strictly. Too late, Man-genius has broken the code of silence.

Excellent analogy.

 

[Pats726]

Violating the rules is cheating. If using a telescope is legal, then it is legal. And no, it's not cheating. yes, the rules should be changed, yes they should be enforced, yes MLB should be able to receive signals in their helmets. And yes, all this irrelevant. Belichick enjoys sticking it in the Commissioner's face. He acts as if he is above the rules. And yes, he even thinks that his interpretations of the rules that he was trying to get around matter at all.

The Patriots can certainly take the position that they are willing to openly break rules in the hope that their blatant example will get the NFL to change the rules. I think that this is a losing tactic.

If many claim that breaking teh defensive signals IS cheating..it's cheating whether coaches do it OR ot's done from technology. The result is the same
MAYBE in your mind it's not...but it's like saying you can look at someone else's paper from afar, it's OK to get the answers but if move up closer and look directly over them it's not. In both cases one is getting the answers.....
cheating...in the case here..whether one uses coaches or video one is still getting the answers..breaking the D...CHEATING!! What the NFL is doing is regulating HOW the cheating can be done.

 

[PatsFan37]

Pats1, I disagree with one point you've made outside of the current controversy. There's a difference between bending or breaking the NFL football rules and collusion to deny a player his rights under the CBA.

In the first case, the team allegedly tweaked a rule that permits signal stealing except when facilitated by video cameras, yada yada yada. That's much ado about nothing.

In another case, some low-ranked player is bargained about such that he earns $80,000 a year instead of $300,000 a year. I have a problem with that, and I don't care how many coaches do it. If they want to legally bust some big star or first round pick out of 5% of their 20 million dollar salary, I don't care, but these other guys who'll play 3 years on the practice squad, on and off the IR, and this is their one chance to make a roster -- that pisses me off.

These guys should get the chance to suit up on Sundays for a team weak at their position. Coaches should not prevent that by bargaining them onto a practice squad.

 

[pats1]

Pats1, I disagree with one point you've made outside of the current controversy. There's a difference between bending or breaking the NFL football rules and collusion to deny a player his rights under the CBA.

In the first case, the team allegedly tweaked a rule that permits signal stealing except when facilitated by video cameras, yada yada yada. That's much ado about nothing.

In another case, some low-ranked player is bargained about such that he earns $80,000 a year instead of $300,000 a year. I have a problem with that, and I don't care how many coaches do it. If they want to legally bust some big star or first round pick out of 5% of their 20 million dollar salary, I don't care, but these other guys who'll play 3 years on the practice squad, on and off the IR, and this is their one chance to make a roster -- that pisses me off.

These guys should get the chance to suit up on Sundays for a team weak at their position. Coaches should not prevent that by bargaining them onto a practice squad.

Right, but collusion can go further than just denying a player's rights.