Missing the point

[mdhprime]

It seems that everyone - fans, media, some players who are talking to the media, are really missing the point. This is in a small way about breaking the rules. The bigger issue is the culture in the NFL when it comes to competitive advantage. Teams have been stealing signs and committing other infractions for years and years and from reports I've read over that last few years, just about every team is involved in some kind of rules breaking or going "outside the lines" to gain an advantage. Examples: 1.) A few years ago the Broncos brought their white jerseys to San Diego even though San Diego, being the home team, determined that they themselves were going to wear their white jerseys. In the SoCal heat, this is a big pretty big deal. 2.) Miami purchased recordings of Brady's snap counts and cadence last year and were able to use them to their advantage on defense. 3.) Denver teaches their offensive lineman to cut block, an illegal and dangeous practice, but they do it and their running game benefits. These are just three examples, but if you listen to what long time players and former coaches have to say, these kind of tactics are commonplace and have been for a long time. Sign stealing has become an art and everyone does it their own way. As far as the acceptability of it, that is for the league to decide, but when you know your opponent is doing something against the rules in order to gain an advantage, will you as a team do nothing do gain your own advantage. It reminds me of a quote from a few years from Belichick when he was asked about Patriots corners bumping Colts receivers; he said something like, "You play the game the way the game is played." I took that to mean if that is what is commonplace and accepted, then by all means play that way. I look at the sign stealing and other tactics in a similar way. Now if the league wants to eliminate these practices, great. If they want to use the Patriots as an example and punish them for violating the rules by taking away a draft pick, fine. They broke the rules and should be punished. However, the commisioner needs to know that their are many other teams (if not all) in the league who are violating the rules to gain an advantage and they need to be watched and discplined as well if he wants to achieve his goal of modifiying the way the game is played. This will be difficult when certain team executives and coaches occupy places of influence within the league...particularly the competition committee. This committee has attempted to legislate their way to success against the Patriots before (Ty Law rule emphasis), and while this particular situation is of the Patriots doing, not theirs, it should not be seen as an opening for attempting further unreasonable checks on a successful team. Are the Patriots tainted? In my opinion, they are in a small way because they got caught breaking a rule...but the bigger picture is that all teams are doing this or something like it in their own way and if that is going to get fixed, then the league needs to be equitable in their investigation and disciplinary actions.

 

[true_patriot]

Well written. It is imperative to understand that the issue here is violation of a rule, instead of cheating (as all the media hacks continue to remind us). I know Pats and BB were hated outside of NE, but I did not know, they were hated THIS MUCH!

 

[JR4]

mdhprime, point the finger and others is not owning up to what
you did wrong ... rather what our head coach has done wrong.
pointing fingers doesn't cut it with me.

Every one breaks the speed limit but when you get caught speeding do you
think the judge is going to care if you use that as your defense????

 

[mdhprime]

mdhprime, point the finger and others is not owning up to what
you did wrong ... rather what our head coach has done wrong.
pointing fingers doesn't cut it with me.

Every one breaks the speed limit but when you get caught speeding do you
think the judge is going to care if you use that as your defense????

If you bothered to read the entire post, you'd realize I was defending nothing. I speaking about an overall philosophy or practice within the league that has existed for a long time. I even stated that the Patriots should be punished if found to be breaking the rules, however that punishment needs to be tempered by the fact all teams need to be held accountable for their actions, not just the most successful team of the decade so far.

 

[mdhprime]

Well written. It is imperative to understand that the issue here is violation of a rule, instead of cheating (as all the media hacks continue to remind us). I know Pats and BB were hated outside of NE, but I did not know, they were hated THIS MUCH!

Success breeds contempt, especially in professional sports. Yankees anyone?

 

[PonyExpress]

mdhprime, point the finger and others is not owning up to what
you did wrong ... rather what our head coach has done wrong.
pointing fingers doesn't cut it with me.

Every one breaks the speed limit but when you get caught speeding do you
think the judge is going to care if you use that as your defense????

The Pats did not break any legal or moral rule. What occurred is called GAMESMANSHIP. In any contest where wins and losses really count, gamesmanship is an accepted reality. There is a long history of stealing signs in the NFL. Shanahan hired lip readers, beginning the process of coaches covering their mouths. Shanahan bent the injury reports, forcing the injury reports to become more stringent. Schottenheimer used scouts to steal signs during games going back to his Cleveland days. Mangini himself engaged in this practice. The difference is that in the past these issues were accepted by league members and kept in house. Coaches took countermeasures and dealt with the Gamesmanship. Only Mangini and the current competition committee, acting on a vendetta with BB, have done differently, breaking the code of silence in order to humilate our coach and team. Wake up.

 

[mdhprime]

The Pats did not break any legal or moral rule. What occurred is called GAMESMANSHIP. In any contest where wins and losses really count, gamesmanship is an accepted reality. There is a long history of stealing signs in the NFL. Shanahan hired lip readers, beginning the process of coaches covering their mouths. Shanahan bent the injury reports, forcing the injury reports to become more stringent. Schottenheimer used scouts to steal signs during games going back to his Cleveland days. Mangini himself engaged in this practice. The difference is that in the past these issues were accepted by league members and kept in house. Coaches took countermeasures and dealt with the Gamesmanship. Only Mangini and the current competition committee, acting on a vendetta with BB, have done differently, breaking the code of silence in order to humilate our coach and team. Wake up.

I couldn't agree more. I wish this point of view sold papers and ad space because if the media reported this, a lot of fans would get a much needed education.

 

[Cannon Arm]

Well written. It is imperative to understand that the issue here is violation of a rule, instead of cheating (as all the media hacks continue to remind us). I know Pats and BB were hated outside of NE, but I did not know, they were hated THIS MUCH!

Violation of a rule for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage (videotape has a perfect memory, unlike humans) doesn't equal cheating to you? What dictionary do you use?

 

[PonyExpress]

Violation of a rule for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage (videotape has a perfect memory, unlike humans) doesn't equal cheating to you? What dictionary do you use?

The same one as your slap-di(k GM, Polian, who has used "gamesmanship" to his advantage with obvious results. He moved his team to a pathetic division of expansion teams and vagabonds to escape the AFC East and benefit his QB; he has been called the worst "thief" related to sign stealing in the NFL by the Ravens' D coordinator; he manipulated the competition committee to benefit his pass happy offense; He pumps up the volume in his stadium; he issues false and misleading injury reports. If you inspect your high horse you will observe it is a jack@$$.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

mdhprime, point the finger and others is not owning up to what
you did wrong ... rather what our head coach has done wrong.
pointing fingers doesn't cut it with me.

Every one breaks the speed limit but when you get caught speeding do you
think the judge is going to care if you use that as your defense????

No.

But when the judge does not administer punishment equitably for the same offense (it's called "equal protection under the law"), then both the law and the judge become more than a little suspect.

I think that's the point.

 

[mdhprime]

Violation of a rule for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage (videotape has a perfect memory, unlike humans) doesn't equal cheating to you? What dictionary do you use?

If an opponent uses unapproved tactics to gain an advantage over your team, a head coach would be remiss in not doing something to gain an advantage for his own team. Everyone is caught up with the word, "cheating" but no one really believes the Patriots are doing anything different than any other team, they just got caught in the way they were doing it. If you noticed, the only NFL people really talking about this are Tomlinson (who already exposed himself as the sorest of losers after the playoff game last season) and inexperienced first year coaches like Tomlin. There are many others who are keeping silent for fear that the powers that be will turn their gaze towards them, and probably for good reason. You can call it cheating if you want, but ignoring the fact that this kind of gamesmanship has been going on for a long time exposes you as rather naive.

 

[Cannon Arm]

The same one as your slap-di(k GM, Polian, who has used "gamesmanship" to his advantage with obvious results. He moved his team to a pathetic division of expansion teams and vagabonds to escape the AFC East and benefit his QB; he has been called the worst "thief" related to sign stealing in the NFL by the Ravens' D coordinator; he manipulated the competition committee to benefit his pass happy offense; He pumps up the volume in his stadium; he issues false and misleading injury reports. If you inspect your high horse you will observe it is a jack@$$.

Nice change of subject. When did the Colts videotape signals like Belichick had done? No one said all competitive advantages are against the rules. Hayden Fry started the tradition of painting pink the visitor's locker room at Iowa. There's no rule against that. Belichick did something that is a clear violation of the rules, after first having been warned to stop violating this particular rule. Please let me know when a Colts coach was in a situation like that.

And, I'm not a Colts fan. I'm a Pats fan. The Pats are bigger than one man. Don't worship Belichick like some beloved autocrat of a backwards nation.

 

[Cannon Arm]

If an opponent uses unapproved tactics to gain an advantage over your team, a head coach would be remiss in not doing something to gain an advantage for his own team. Everyone is caught up with the word, "cheating" but no one really believes the Patriots are doing anything different than any other team, they just got caught in the way they were doing it. If you noticed, the only NFL people really talking about this are Tomlinson (who already exposed himself as the sorest of losers after the playoff game last season) and inexperienced first year coaches like Tomlin. There are many others who are keeping silent for fear that the powers that be will turn their gaze towards them, and probably for good reason. You can call it cheating if you want, but ignoring the fact that this kind of gamesmanship has been going on for a long time exposes you as rather naive.

Tomlin has been in the NFL as a coach since 2001. He's not some idiot who just fell off the turnip truck.

Do you have any evidence that another team videotaped signals the way the Pats did? We have evidence the Pats violated this specific rule.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Well written. It is imperative to understand that the issue here is violation of a rule, instead of cheating (as all the media hacks continue to remind us). I know Pats and BB were hated outside of NE, but I did not know, they were hated THIS MUCH!

It's also a story of betrayal............... Eric Mangini (whether he was doing the Competitive Committee's Bidding), set up his former mentor and at the same time pulled the pants down of some of the ugliness of the NFL.

Bank on it. There will be tons of allegations that will come out as we go. The NFL has torn down one of their own........ It's not gonna be pretty. BB will survive though (maybe not here though sadly), but don't think Mangini will get away (long term) scott free.

If there is one thing this world hates more than a Cheat (which is almost too strong a word here), it's a snitch (which Mangini certainly proved himself to be).

 

[mdhprime]

Tomlin has been in the NFL as a coach since 2001. He's not some idiot who just fell off the turnip truck.

Do you have any evidence that another team videotaped signals the way the Pats did? We have evidence the Pats violated this specific rule.

Six years is not exactly a wealth of experience. Get over the video taping aspect. Yes it is a violation...yes they should be fairly punished...yes it is a result of a culture of competitive advantage that has existed for a long, long time and other teams need to be scrutinized in their practices as well.

 

[Cannon Arm]

If there is one thing this world hates more than a Cheat (which is almost too strong a word here), it's a snitch (which Mangini certainly proved himself to be).

No, all teams who have been on the receiving end of the Pats stealing signals by way of videotape are enraged by the Pats having been able to get away with cheating the rules all this time and are happy the Pats have had their comeuppance.

 

[mdhprime]

No, all teams who have been on the receiving end of the Pats stealing signals by way of videotape are enraged by the Pats having been able to get away with cheating the rules all this time and are happy the Pats have had their comeuppance.

You are half right. A lot of teams are happy the Patriots have taken some lumps here. No one is enraged...they are hoping that they are not found out in what they do, hence the lack of response from experienced people in the league.

 

[loosebearing]

Violation of a rule for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage (videotape has a perfect memory, unlike humans) doesn't equal cheating to you? What dictionary do you use?

It wasn't cheating until the competition committee wrote the rule this year saying it was. Up until this season sign stealing was an art.

However, is using the competition committee by certain owners and coaches to their advantage to their competitive advantage by changing common practices and on field play by declaring them illegal or changing how they are called CHEATING.

The Colts used the Committee to win a SB. Don't think that that is why BB thinks risking draft picks and suspension to make a point to the committee.

I declare no one is allowed to buy lunch today.
So, if you buy lunch are you cheating?

 

[Cannon Arm]

You are half right. A lot of teams are happy the Patriots have taken some lumps here. No one is enraged...they are hoping that they are not found out in what they do, hence the lack of response from experienced people in the league.

No one is as aggressive about stealing signals as the Pats. Every team is clean on stealing signals compared to the Pats. The Pats are like serial killers vs. someone who commits vehicular manslaughter.

 

[Cannon Arm]

It wasn't cheating until the competition committee wrote the rule this year saying it was. Up until this season sign stealing was an art.

However, is using the competition committee by certain owners and coaches to their advantage to their competitive advantage by changing common practices and on field play by declaring them illegal or changing how they are called CHEATING.

The Colts used the Committee to win a SB. Don't think that that is why BB thinks risking draft picks and suspension to make a point to the committee.

I declare no one is allowed to buy lunch today.
So, if you buy lunch are you cheating?

If you are my employer and I am free to leave the company, you can make such a demand and I'd be in violation of your rule. Belichick doesn't have to coach in the NFL if he doesn't want to operate under the league's rules. He can leave and be an AFL coach or whatever.