Asante and "coaching up..."

[patsox23]

I've been reading a lot this off-season about how Asante Samuel is a top 5 corner. I think that's silly. Top 10, maybe, but top 5? I'd take all of the following over Asante: Champ Bailey, Dre Bly, Chris McCalister, DeAngelo Hall, Ronde Barber, Lito Sheppard. More to the point, though...

You have to bear in mind the talent of this staff in terms of "coaching up" players. Asante brings a lot of natural skill and determination to the position - he has DEFINITELY improved himself and deserves credit for that. But the guys coaching him and the scheme he plays in and the players around him also help. And I just find it hard to believe that guys like those listed above (and others) couldn't be as effective, or perhaps more so, than Asante, if they too were practicing/playing under the watchful eye of one Bill Belichick.

It's part of why the Patriots draft so well. It's not just a keen eye for talent, especially as it pertains to their schemes and what they ask a player to do. It's also Bill Belichick as TEACHER and the coaches he surrounds himself with, and the processes/attitudes he instills in them. This staff is unbelievably talented at educating their players, at "coaching them up." And that is an added bonus to the level of production/performance that we get from personnel, and can be (and often is) an obscured downgrade for those players who head elsewhere to ply their trade.

 

[patriot lifer]

I've been reading a lot this off-season about how Asante Samuel is a top 5 corner. I think that's silly. Top 10, maybe, but top 5? I'd take all of the following over Asante: Champ Bailey, Dre Bly, Chris McCalister, DeAngelo Hall, Ronde Barber, Lito Sheppard. More to the point, though...

You have to bear in mind the talent of this staff in terms of "coaching up" players. Asante brings a lot of natural skill and determination to the position - he has DEFINITELY improved himself and deserves credit for that. But the guys coaching him and the scheme he plays in and the players around him also help. And I just find it hard to believe that guys like those listed above (and others) couldn't be as effective, or perhaps more so, than Asante, if they too were practicing/playing under the watchful eye of one Bill Belichick.

It's part of why the Patriots draft so well. It's not just a keen eye for talent, especially as it pertains to their schemes and what they ask a player to do. It's also Bill Belichick as TEACHER and the coaches he surrounds himself with, and the processes/attitudes he instills in them. This staff is unbelievably talented at educating their players, at "coaching them up." And that is an added bonus to the level of production/performance that we get from personnel, and can be (and often is) an obscured downgrade for those players who head elsewhere to ply their trade.

Why are we so blessed?

 

[Oswlek]

I've been reading a lot this off-season about how Asante Samuel is a top 5 corner. I think that's silly. Top 10, maybe, but top 5? I'd take all of the following over Asante: Champ Bailey, Dre Bly, Chris McCalister, DeAngelo Hall, Ronde Barber, Lito Sheppard. More to the point, though...

You have to bear in mind the talent of this staff in terms of "coaching up" players. Asante brings a lot of natural skill and determination to the position - he has DEFINITELY improved himself and deserves credit for that. But the guys coaching him and the scheme he plays in and the players around him also help. And I just find it hard to believe that guys like those listed above (and others) couldn't be as effective, or perhaps more so, than Asante, if they too were practicing/playing under the watchful eye of one Bill Belichick.

It's part of why the Patriots draft so well. It's not just a keen eye for talent, especially as it pertains to their schemes and what they ask a player to do. It's also Bill Belichick as TEACHER and the coaches he surrounds himself with, and the processes/attitudes he instills in them. This staff is unbelievably talented at educating their players, at "coaching them up." And that is an added bonus to the level of production/performance that we get from personnel, and can be (and often is) an obscured downgrade for those players who head elsewhere to ply their trade.

First, DeAngelo Hall needs to stop being put up there in these discussions. He is a decent player with a name. Nothing more. If he had been drafted in the 4th round most would think he is a guy with decent potential. No one would consider him even top twenty, let alone top 5.

That said, I fail to see what BB and his teaching talents have anything to do with Samuel. Are you making the point that BB and friends are so much better at teaching that they don't require as much talent? If so, isn't that a disparagement of the other players on this team, or does it only apply to guys that are holding out at any point in time. If you are saying that BB can take guys without as much *natural* ability and make them into players, I still don't see why those players should be thought lesser of than guys that thrived in spite of their coaches. If both guys are just as good in their 5th year, what does it matter what track they took to get there?

I will agree that Samuel is not someone who can be left alone and that's it. But at this point in time, nobody is. Bailey is not left on an island. Denver tried that in 2005 and Champ was burned on several occasions. Once he was given safety help again in 2006 he looked like the worldbeater that many think he is. The point is that Samuel may no be much in the historical sense of the game, but he is absolutely one of the better CBs in the league *right now*.

Lastly, every team uses a system. Just because a player may be a better fit for one than others does not mean that his value to his team should be any less. Isn't this the same argument that Pats fans have bristled at whenever it was applied to Tommy?

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Dre Bly is a top 5????

 

[Brownfan80]

Dre Bly is a top 5????

I kind of raised my eyebrow at that one too, but then I couldn't think of my own top five corners so I just chalked it up to the fact that Corners in general aren't what they used to be. Blame the rule changes, blame the kids knowing that WRs get paid more than CBs, blame whatever you want, but there aren't that many great CBs out there right now.

 

[363839]

First, DeAngelo Hall needs to stop being put up there in these discussions. He is a decent player with a name. Nothing more. If he had been drafted in the 4th round most would think he is a guy with decent potential. No one would consider him even top twenty, let alone top 5.

That said, I fail to see what BB and his teaching talents have anything to do with Samuel. Are you making the point that BB and friends are so much better at teaching that they don't require as much talent? If so, isn't that a disparagement of the other players on this team, or does it only apply to guys that are holding out at any point in time. If you are saying that BB can take guys without as much *natural* ability and make them into players, I still don't see why those players should be thought lesser of than guys that thrived in spite of their coaches. If both guys are just as good in their 5th year, what does it matter what track they took to get there?

I will agree that Samuel is not someone who can be left alone and that's it. But at this point in time, nobody is. Bailey is not left on an island. Denver tried that in 2005 and Champ was burned on several occasions. Once he was given safety help again in 2006 he looked like the worldbeater that many think he is. The point is that Samuel may no be much in the historical sense of the game, but he is absolutely one of the better CBs in the league *right now*.

Lastly, every team uses a system. Just because a player may be a better fit for one than others does not mean that his value to his team should be any less. Isn't this the same argument that Pats fans have bristled at whenever it was applied to Tommy?

I think the Pats could survive Samuels departure alright. But not because of lack of talent on his part but because of the pressure the front seven will be able to bring.

I guess the Titan coaching staff agree with this.
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=1469

 

[Oswlek]

I think the Pats could survive Samuels departure alright. But not because of lack of talent on his part but because of the pressure the front seven will be able to bring.

I guess the Titan coaching staff agree with this.
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=1469

I don't dispute any of this. Nor do I think that it is inconsistent with anything that I said before.

 

[Va_Pats_Fan]

I think the Pats could survive Samuels departure alright. But not because of lack of talent on his part but because of the pressure the front seven will be able to bring.

I guess the Titan coaching staff agree with this.
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=1469

Plus, if Blue stays healthy, whats the drop off...? slight..?

 

[patsox23]

I fail to see what BB and his teaching talents have anything to do with Samuel. Are you making the point that BB and friends are so much better at teaching that they don't require as much talent? If so, isn't that a disparagement of the other players on this team, or does it only apply to guys that are holding out at any point in time. If you are saying that BB can take guys without as much *natural* ability and make them into players, I still don't see why those players should be thought lesser of than guys that thrived in spite of their coaches. If both guys are just as good in their 5th year, what does it matter what track they took to get there?

I think you're generalizing what I wrote. I think LOTs of players leave the Patriots and are less effective because of BB's ability to coach up, and because this system relies MORE THAN MOST on the sum of the parts. So the sum of the parts does, in some cases, raise the perceived talent level of players.

I'm not saying they're not at all talented, or it's "all about BB," but yes, I'd say - if one were so insistent on generalizing, that "BB and friends" are INDEED far superior in terms of teaching - not just in terms of developing youngsters but in terms of developing a player over the years. This is hardly a newsflash.

 

[JackBauer]

I wouldn't say Bly or Barber are better than Samuel. No way. DeAngelo Hall, to this point, is still potential; the guy just hasn't been that good, though he may be some day due to his freakish athletic ability. Scrabble is one guy, though, who might be better. Pacman was probably better, too, though we all know his deal.

Samuel played like a top-5 CB last year, but I can understand why many wouldn't want to elevate him to that level yet since he hasn't shown the ability to play at such a level consistently.

 

[PonyExpress]

Cbs with proven ball skills who make big plays in big games are worth big bucks, bottom line. Asante has 4 INTs and 3 TDS in his last 5 playoff games. That's a resume that stands up against any cb in the NFL. The Pats can win without him, but he's still a top of the line player.

 

[Pats726]

Samuel played like a top-5 CB last year, but I can understand why many wouldn't want to elevate him to that level yet since he hasn't shown the ability to play at such a level consistently.

I think that last statement is key..consistency... So far Samuel has had HALF a season..NOT a full season of stellar play. It would say a LOT MORE of his ability if that was a whole year..but really it was not. (And for those who say he played that way all year, please show me all teh threads from the first 8 games of the season saying that he should be franchised..look hard because there weren't any. It was in fact at that point that MANY were talking about Franchising Graham, not Samuel.) That did change because of his top of the line play, but ONLY in the last 11 games and I do not think that makes one a TOP CB. If that play stays at that level and I agree he belongs in the top tier, but until that is seen, it may as much be the anomalie than the level that he is at. Unfortunately, his staying out of camp I believe is not helping at all to show anything from him. And the fact that he's using that AND NOT showing what his play is like, is more a red flag. But hopefully we will find out soon enough.

 

[patsox23]

You put ANY of those guys I mentioned in the initial post into the Patriots system, with what BB and the staff ask them to do, and have them practice under BB and this staff, and IMO they all are potentially, if not DEFINITELY as good or better than Asante.

 

[Oswlek]

I think that last statement is key..consistency... So far Samuel has had HALF a season..NOT a full season of stellar play. It would say a LOT MORE of his ability if that was a whole year..but really it was not. (And for those who say he played that way all year, please show me all teh threads from the first 8 games of the season saying that he should be franchised..look hard because there weren't any. It was in fact at that point that MANY were talking about Franchising Graham, not Samuel.) That did change because of his top of the line play, but ONLY in the last 11 games and I do not think that makes one a TOP CB. If that play stays at that level and I agree he belongs in the top tier, but until that is seen, it may as much be the anomalie than the level that he is at. Unfortunately, his staying out of camp I believe is not helping at all to show anything from him. And the fact that he's using that AND NOT showing what his play is like, is more a red flag. But hopefully we will find out soon enough.

The main reason people talked about Franchising Graham was because TE franchise isn't that costly. Plus, NE had never shown a propensity to use the franchise tag on an expensive position.

Samuel has been far more consistent than most fans realize. Feel free to peruse my post history and you will see that I was saying that Samuel was clearly a top 20 CB at the beginning of last year. Too many people refused to take into consideration just how much the atrocious safety play - and subsequent lack of safety help when Hobbs started to play - affected Samuel's aggressiveness. Even then, his playoff games have been as good as any CB that has played in the last decade.

There is no way that fans would have this opinion of him if he were at camp right now. The guy is damn good.

 

[patsox23]

I don't think we're claiming he isn't "damn good." I think we're saying he's not TOP FIVE, which is truly elite.

 

[patriot lifer]

let's see at least a probowl, nevermind an all-pro honors, before we call him "elite."

 

[Oswlek]

I don't think we're claiming he isn't "damn good." I think we're saying he's not TOP FIVE, which is truly elite.

But by your own admission he is top 10. That isn't elite?

And three of the people you mention are clearly no better than Asante. Even if you disagree you have to agree that they certainly aren't *clearly better* than Samuel.

The amount of money that NE is willing to give Samuel disputes all of this anyway. DO you really think that BB would be willing to give nearly $8mm to a guy that is merely good?

 

[Oswlek]

let's see at least a probowl, nevermind an all-pro honors, before we call him "elite."

Please. We can say the same thing for Warren. And d%#*!@t, Harrison wasn't in the probowl for either 2003 and 2004 IIRC despite being, IMHO the best player in the NFL at any position in 2004.

 

[patriot lifer]

Please. We can say the same thing for Warren. And d%#*!@t, Harrison wasn't in the probowl for either 2003 and 2004 IIRC despite being, IMHO the best player in the NFL at any position in 2004.

Ok, so this is an issue of semantics. What's the cutoff for elite?

 

[patriot lifer]

my personal "elite" player is one who competes for the all-pro honors (not necessarily getting it, but contending).