Bengals' Thurman, Bucs' Cox file discrimination claims against NFL

[pats1]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2978901&campaign=rsssrch&source=len_pasquarelli

Bengals' Thurman, Bucs' Cox file discrimination claims against NFL

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: August 17, 2007, 12:42 PM ET

Two players currently suspended by the NFL, middle linebacker Odell Thurman of the Cincinnati Bengals and Tampa Bay Bucs cornerback Torrie Cox, have filed discrimination claims with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in an attempt to have their respective league sanctions overturned.

The lawsuits were filed with the EEOC under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Essentially, the players are contending that they have been viewed as alcoholics in the eyes of the NFL, and that perception is the basis for the punitive actions that were imposed by commissioner Roger Goodell. The players were suspended for repeat violations of the NFL substance abuse policy.

The Americans with Disabilities Act prohibits employers from discriminating against workers with disabilities. Representatives for the players contend in the separate lawsuits that alcoholism is a disability.

Both suits cite the case of former NBA player Roy Tarpley, the onetime Dallas Mavericks' forward who was suspended in 1995. The EEOC ruled that NBA violated the Americans with Disabilities Act when it did not reinstate Tarpley even though he apparently passed drug screenings for four straight years.

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[Pujo]

Why are they calling it a "lawsuit"? It's an administrative complaint, not a suit.

 

[37Harrison]

Just more people who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions!

Did they go to AA meetings? Have they taken ANY steps to fight this 'disability'?

Friggin' people!

 

[DaBruinz]

I thought that alcoholism is a disease, not a disability...

Damn, those two are bad...

 

[patsox23]

That's really pathetic. It drags down the rep of people who have REAL and legitimate complaints for ACTUAL discrimination. Disgusting.

 

[Krazy Koz]

I thought that alcoholism is a disease, not a disability...

Damn, those two are bad...

It's actually not even a disease. Back when it was turned over as a "disease" the primary reason wasn't because the data showed that it was a disease, but that the people couldn't pay for the treatment of it. So once it was labeled as a disease other third party payers would pay for it (such as insurance and public aid) to get the people the help they needed.

 

[Fixit]

I thought that alcoholism is a disease, not a disability...

If you ask me, which you didn't , it's neither. It's a compulsion, like gambling or lying. As far as I'm concerned, any "disease" in which a person has to actively and willingly participate in order to suffer from it isn't a disease at all. People don't have to do anything to make cancer eat away at their body, but they do have to choose to lift that drink arm repeatedly.

And these two claim they have a disability? Please. Get help, fellas, but take your league-mandated medicine.

I hate the world.

 

[Pujo]

If you ask me, which you didn't , it's neither. It's a compulsion, like gambling or lying. As far as I'm concerned, any "disease" in which a person has to actively and willingly participate in order to suffer from it isn't a disease at all. People don't have to do anything to make cancer eat away at their body, but they do have to choose to lift that drink arm repeatedly.

And these two claim they have a disability? Please. Get help, fellas, but take your league-mandated medicine.

I hate the world.

What does the cause have to do with it being a disease? If it causes a physical change in the body or brain that leads to health consequences, it's a disease. If you smoke, you can get lung cancer, but lung cancer's a disease despite your active and willing participation, likewise for drinking and cirrhosis of the liver, or overeating and heart disease. Now as a society we might choose to treat self-inflicted diseases differently, but don't muddy up what's a medical term. The fact that heavy alcoholics can actually die from suddenly discontinuing drinking (delirium tremens) hints at alcohol's ability to make physical changes to the body.

But even if alcohol is a disease or disability, being not drunk is a bona-fide job requirement for most places, doubly so when your job involves being hit, and bona-fide job requirements aren't covered by the ADA (for example, you can't be forced to hire a wheelchair bound firefighter).

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

What does the cause have to do with it being a disease? If it causes a physical change in the body or brain that leads to health consequences, it's a disease. If you smoke, you can get lung cancer, but lung cancer's a disease despite your active and willing participation, likewise for drinking and cirrhosis of the liver, or overeating and heart disease. Now as a society we might choose to treat self-inflicted diseases differently, but don't muddy up what's a medical term. The fact that heavy alcoholics can actually die from suddenly discontinuing drinking (delirium tremens) hints at alcohol's ability to make physical changes to the body.

But even if alcohol is a disease or disability, being not drunk is a bona-fide job requirement for most places, doubly so when your job involves being hit, and bona-fide job requirements aren't covered by the ADA (for example, you can't be forced to hire a wheelchair bound firefighter).

There's a big difference. Lung cancer is the disease, smoking is the habit. Calling smoking a disease because of a potential consequence is a little disingenuous.

 

[Fixit]

What does the cause have to do with it being a disease? If it causes a physical change in the body or brain that leads to health consequences, it's a disease. If you smoke, you can get lung cancer, but lung cancer's a disease despite your active and willing participation, likewise for drinking and cirrhosis of the liver, or overeating and heart disease. Now as a society we might choose to treat self-inflicted diseases differently, but don't muddy up what's a medical term. The fact that heavy alcoholics can actually die from suddenly discontinuing drinking (delirium tremens) hints at alcohol's ability to make physical changes to the body.

The physical changes to the body are a result of the behavior. Excessive drinking can certainly lead to many diseases, but that doesn't mean that alcoholism itself is a disease. Is smoking a disease? Or overeating? Or dipping tobacco? Or shooting heroin? Or working in a coal mine? Or engaging in lots of unprotected sex? All of those behaviors can lead to disease, but that doesn't mean that the choices a person makes are. If Thurman felt that he got suspended because of his jaundiced skin that resulted from cirrhosis, he might have a case. But the alcoholism? Behavior, not disease.

 

[Fixit]

There's a big difference. Lung cancer is the disease, smoking is the habit. Calling smoking a disease because of a potential consequence is a little disingenuous.

Dang. Yours was shorter and more to the point than mine. Well played, sir.

 

[Pujo]

If the compulsion comes from physical changes to the brain (a physical dependence, which is a real thing) then there's basis for calling it a disease. Alcoholism isn't the same as drinking, it's the addiction to drinking.

 

[Fixit]

If the compulsion comes from physical changes to the brain (a physical dependence, which is a real thing) then there's basis for calling it a disease. Alcoholism isn't the same as drinking, it's the addiction to drinking.

So it's an addiction, not a disease.

That didn't take long.

 

[Pujo]

So it's an addiction, not a disease.

That didn't take long.

It's both.

Disease (n): a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms.

Is it a condition? Yup.
Does it impair normal functioning? Yes again.
Is it manifested by distinguising signs and symptoms? Definately.

Now we can argue semantics all day, but disease is a word defined by the medical community and according to them it includes alcoholism. You may have your own connotations about what the word means, but that's how it's defined by a majority of the relevant people.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define:alcoholism gives definitions for alcoholism from dozens of sources and they all say it's a disease.

 

[Fixit]

It's both.

Disease (n): a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms.

Is it a condition? Yup.
Does it impair normal functioning? Yes again.
Is it manifested by distinguising signs and symptoms? Definately.

Now we can argue semantics all day, but disease is word defined by the medical community and according to them it includes alcoholism. You may have your own connotations about what the word means, but that's how it's defined by a majority of the relevant people.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define:alcoholism

Oooh. A definition! Incidentally, by that rather broad definition, almost anything can be classified as a disease. It's interesting to know that not brushing after every meal, being fat, and missing a leg are all diseases. They are, after all, "conditions" that impair normal functioning and are manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms.

Smoking is a disease: yes or no?
Nymphomania is a disease: yes or no?
Compulsive gambling is a disease: yes or no?

Calling alcoholism a disease is an insult to people that actually have real diseases that they can't stop, no matter what they do. An alcoholic can stop drinking...a gambler can stop gambling...a smoker can stop smoking...a nympho can stop hopping in the sack, though that may make it harder for some guys to score.

It may not be easy (let's be honest: it's a biznitch), but it is that simple.

 

[Pujo]

An insult? My friend, some people manage to find insults in all kinds of places, and I believe that's a disease.

I don't think an alcoholic's only problem is that they're "weak willed", there's a reason it's hard to stop for even the ones that make an honest effort.

Arguing beyond that is tying to make a square peg fit into a round hole, words aren't perfect and don't mean the same things to everyone. When I consider the effects of alcoholism I'll be sure to remember that the medical community considers it a disease, while Fixit doesn't.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Actually Odell Thurman has a legitimate excuse for violating the NFL substance abuse policy.

It turns out he was simply engaged in research for a role in a movie he hopes to appear in.

It's called "The Odell Thurman Story".

 

[Fixit]

An insult? My friend, some people manage to find insults in all kinds of places, and I believe that's a disease.

I don't think an alcoholic's only problem is that they're "weak willed", there's a reason it's hard to stop for even the ones that make an honest effort.

Arguing beyond that is tying to make a square peg fit into a round hole, words aren't perfect and don't mean the same things to everyone. When I consider the effects of alcoholism I'll be sure to remember that the medical community considers it a disease, while Fixit doesn't.

And I'm sure you agree 100% with what the experts say about everything. And when they change their mind about whatever, you agree with that. Remember, eggs are good for you. No,wait, they're bad. No, good. It's a good thing that doctors never change their minds on disease diagnosis and treatment.

Just because alcohol is called a disease in the loosest sense doesn't mean that it is. Doctors used to believe that most afflictions were caused by the Devil. Phrenology was once used to identify criminals, too.

You still haven't chimed in on whether you believe that smoking is a disease, by the way. I'm not busting your ass on that one. I'm honestly curious about what you think.

 

[Pujo]

At the risk of boring everyone else with this thread...

It's not a matter of new evidence or experts changing their mind, it's a definition. Disease could be defined to include alcoholism, or it could be defined in such a way as to exclude it. It's a concious decision, and the medical community has chosen to define it that way. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that alcoholism a disease according to the definition of "disease" you have in your mind, but if you ask a doctor, they're going to tell you it's a disease.

Is smoking a disease? No, but "drinking" isn't, either. The chronic addiction to smoking is a disease, just like alcoholism.

 

[BelichickFan]

Alcoholism is a disease only to the weak minded. Cancer is a disease - you can't "decide" not to have cancer. You can decide to stop drinking.