Kirwan on Pats

[PatsFanInVa]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/10263096

Breaks down the unique mix (old behind the lines, young in the trenches, to be simplistic,) discusses the impact of that mix on special teams. Good read.

Did not see this in the first couple pages of links; if it's been posted before, please merge.

PFnV

 

[patriot lifer]

i especially enjoyed when he remarked that "they aren't becoming a one-year wonder team intent on one last Super Bowl run" when discussing the age of the team. some people out there may think they aren't built to last for a number of future superbowl runs

 

[wistahpatsfan]

Great post, PFV!
I especially loved this paragraph, that kinda says it all:

..."The Patriots are a unique team when you study them closely. The players who play with their hand on the ground, the offensive and defensive lines, are young and acquired through the draft. The starting offensive line averages 28 years of age and the defensive line averages 26. Many teams find themselves with their older players on the lines, where experience can really matter. Belichick has been drafting linemen on the first day of the draft and playing them early. But when it comes to other positions, he has no problem with a bunch of over-30 types"...

Good stuff and very much tells the Patriot Way at this point in the Dynasty.

 

[Fencer]

He basically says "It's all good, except maybe on kick coverage."

They certainly are taking some chances there, e.g. cutting my man Spann. Still, I expect they can put some good units together.

 

[patsfan13]

Very good article much better than the usual mile wide inch deep analysis you get from ESPN and others. BB has never had a problem using starters on ST's as needed . It's always to see where BB drafts and where he get Vets to fill the roster.

 

[mancunian]

Good article, though I do worry sometimes with the number of over 30's we have. Especially at LB.

But then again I'm no football coach and its why BB is.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

My worry isn't so much the number of 30+ guys but it is the number of 30+ guys who have been hurt in the last couple of years. Bruschi, Harrison, Seau, the heart of the back 7 really.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Good article, though I do worry sometimes with the number of over 30's we have. Especially at LB.

But then again I'm no football coach and its why BB is.

Kirwan qualifies this by noting its understandable that in a position where experience counts, BB has stockpiled experience... but with that comes age.

The more interesting point is that when your backups are seasoned veterans, that can prevent developmental roster/special teams positions from going to younger players - who can develop into the experienced veterans.

That's BB's challenge in part - as he's helped an organization evolve into perennial SB contenders keeping them there means a different mix of young and old players compared to a rebuilding team.

That's where our so-called Shadow Roster comes in - players both young and old that BB moves in and out with the ability to call those guys back in, subject to availabilty, when he needs them. Personally I'd prefer a larger roster and practice squad, but the limits are what they are.

 

[italian pat patriot]

thanks/good article

 

[mancunian]

Kirwan qualifies this by noting its understandable that in a position where experience counts, BB has stockpiled experience... but with that comes age.

The more interesting point is that when your backups are seasoned veterans, that can prevent developmental roster/special teams positions from going to younger players - who can develop into the experienced veterans.

That's BB's challenge in part - as he's helped an organization evolve into perennial SB contenders keeping them there means a different mix of young and old players compared to a rebuilding team.

That's where our so-called Shadow Roster comes in - players both young and old that BB moves in and out with the ability to call those guys back in, subject to availabilty, when he needs them. Personally I'd prefer a larger roster and practice squad, but the limits are what they are.

Oh I understood that - you need a good mix of experience and youth on any roster.
I would like to see us bring through a couple of younger players to prepare for the future when there's no Bruschi, Vrabel, Seau. Colvin and Thomas are what both 30?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

My worry isn't so much the number of 30+ guys but it is the number of 30+ guys who have been hurt in the last couple of years. Bruschi, Harrison, Seau, the heart of the back 7 really.

You may have a point, 6 of 13 Pats on the IR in 2006 were 30+...

8	Miller	Josh	  P	6-4	225	06/14/70	11	FA (PIT)-04	Arizona	Queens,  NY
15	Walter	Ken	  P	6-1	207	08/15/72	9	FA-06	Kent State	Cleveland,  OH
21	Gay Randall	  CB	5-11	190	5/5/1982	3	FA-04	Louisiana State	Brusly, La.
24	Mitchell Mel	  S	6-1	225	2/10/1979	5	FA(NO)-06	Western Kentucky	Rockledge, Fla.
26	Wilson	Eugene	  DB	5-10	195	8/17/80	4	D2a-03	Illinois	Merrillville, Ind.
34	Jones Tebucky	  S	6-2	220	10/6/74	9	D1b-98	Syracuse	New Britain, Conn.
35	Pass Patrick	  RB	5-10	217	12/31/77	7	D7b-00	Georgia	Scottsdale  Ga.
42	Williams Gemara CB	5-8	180	4/30/83	R	FA-06	Buffalo	Oak Park, Mich.
45	Mills Garrett	  TE	6-1	235	10/12/83	R	D4a-06	Tulsa	Jenks, Okla.
47	Gardner Barry	  LB	6-1	245	12/13/76	8	FA-06	Northwestern	Harvey, Ill.
51	Davis	Don	  LB	6-1	235	12/17/72	11	UFA(STL)-03	Kansas	Olathe, Kan.
55	Seau	Junior	  LB	6-3	248	01/19/69	17	FA-06	Southern California	San Diego, Calif.
74	Yates	Billy	  G	6-2	305	04/15/80	3	FA-03	Texas A&M	Fort Worth, Texas

Up from 4 of 11 30+ in 2005...

47	Claridge Ryan	  LB	6-2	254	04/12/81	R	D5-05	Nevada-Las Vegas 	Almont, Mich.
21	Gay Randall	  CB	5-11	186	05/05/82	2	FA-04	Louisiana State 	Brusly, La.
37	Harrison Rodney  S	6-1	220	12/15/72	12	FA(SD)-03	Western Illinois 	Chicago, Ill.
67	Koppen	Dan	  C	6-2	296	09/12/79	3	D5-03	Boston College 	Whitehall, Pa.
72	Light	Matt	  T	6-4	305	06/23/78	5	D2-01	Purdue	Greenville, Ohio
15	McGrew Michael  WR	6-2	201	05/17/82	R	FA-05	Virginia	Birmingham, Ala.
38	Poole	Tyrone	  CB	5-8	188	02/03/72	10	UFA(DEN)-03	Fort Valley State 	LaGrange, Ga.
30	Scott	Chad	  CB	6-1	202	09/06/74	9	FA(PIT)-05	Maryland	Capital Heights, Md.
29	Scott	Gus	  S	5-10	205	05/21/82	2	D3-04	Florida	Jacksonville, Fla.
23	Starks	Duane	  CB	5-10	174	05/23/74	8	TR(ARZ)-05	Miami(Fla.)	Miami, Fla.
99	Wright	Mike	  DL	6-4	295	03/01/82	R	FA-05	Cincinnati	Cincinnati, Ohio

Up from 2 of 11 30+ in 2004...

49	Alexander Eric  LB	6-2	240	02/08/82	1	FA-04	Louisiana State	Port Arthur, Tex.
68	Ashworth Tom	  T	6-6	305	10/10/77	3	FA-01	Colorado	Englewood, Colo.
96	Bailey	Rodney	  DL	6-3	305	10/07/79	4	RFA (PIT)-04	Ohio State	Cleveland, Ohio
46	Flemister Zeron TE	6-4	250	09/08/76	5	UFA (WAS)-04	Iowa	Sioux City, Iowa
90	Klecko	Dan	  DL/LB 5-11	275	01/12/81	2	D4a-03(117th overall)	Temple	Colts Neck, N.J.
70	Klemm	Adrian	  T	6-3	312	05/21/77	4	D2-00 (46th overall)	Hawaii	Los Angeles, Calif.
24	Law	Ty	  CB	5-11	200	02/10/74	10	D1-95 (23rd overall)	Michigan	Aliquippa, Pa.
38	Poole	Tyrone	  CB	5-8	188	02/03/72	9	UFA(DEN)-03	Fort Valley State	LaGrange, Ga.
14	Sam	P.K.	  WR	6-3	210	02/26/83	R	D5-04 (164th overall)	Florida State 	Buford, Ga.
39	Scott	Guss	  S	5-10	205	05/21/82	R	D3-04 (95th overall)	Florida	Jacksonville, Fla.
84	Watson Benjamin TE	6-3	253	12/18/80	R	D1-04 (32nd overall)	Georgia	Rock Hill, S.C.

Down from 2 of 10 30+ in 2003...

59	Colvin	Rosevelt  LB	6-3	250	09/05/77	5	UFA (CHI)-03 	Purdue	Olathe, Kan. 
77	Compton Mike	   G/C	6-6	310	09/18/70	11	UFA (DET)-01 	West Virginia	Richlands, Va. 
16	Kingsbury Kliff  QB	6-3	220	08/09/79	R	D6-03	Texas Tech 	New Braunfels, Texas 
70	Klemm	Adrian    T	6-3	312	05/21/77	4	D2-00	Hawaii	Inglewood, Calif. 
44	McCrary Fred     FB	6-0	247	09/19/72	7	FA (SD)-03 	Mississippi State 	Naples, Fla. 
49	McDermott Sean   LS	6-4	250	12/05/76	3	FA (MIA)-03 	Kansas	Lufkin, Texas 
64	Mruczkowski Gene OL	6-2	305	06/06/80	R	FA-03	Purdue	Cleveland, Ohio 
61	Neal	Stephen   G	6-4	305	10/09/76	2	FA-01	Cal State-Bakersfield 	San Diego, Calif. 
86	Patten	David     WR	5-10	190	08/19/74	7	UFA (CLE)-01 	Western Carolina	Columbia, S.C.
66	Paxton	Lonie     LS	6-2	260	03/13/78	4	FA-00	Sacramento State 	Anaheim, Calif.

Up from 0 of 5 30 + in 2002...

58	Chatham Matt	LB	6-4	248	06/28/77	3	CW (STL)-00 	South Dakota 	Newton, Iowa 
31	Kelly	Ben	CB	5-9	185	09/15/78	3	FA-02	Colorado	Cleveland, Ohio 
37	Kelly	Rob	S	6-0	205	06/21/74	5	FA-02	Ohio State 	Newark, Ohio 
61	Neal Stephen	G	6-4	305	10/09/76	1	FA-01	Cal State - Bakersfield 	San Diego, Calif. 
45	Smith	Otis	CB	5-11	198	10/22/65	13	FA-00	Missouri	New Orleans, La.

Down from 1 of 10 30+ in 2001...

14	Williams Walter  RB	6-0	210	09/08/77	R	Grambling	FA-01	Leg
28	Williams Brock   CB	5-10	195	08/11/79	R	Notre Dame	D3-01	Knee
31	Kelly	Ben	   CB	5-9	185	09/15/78	2	Colorado	CW (MIA)-01	Foot
38	Hill	Ray	   CB	6-0	190	08/07/75	4	Michigan State	CW (Buf)-01	Knee
49	Holloway Jabari  TE	6-2	258	12/18/78	R	Notre Dame	D4b-01	Leg
59	Katzenmoyer Andy LB	6-3	260	12/02/77	3	Ohio State	D1b-99	Neck
70	Klemm	Adrian	   T	6-3	312	05/21/77	2	Hawaii	D2-00	Leg
82	Jackson Curtis   WR	5-10	194	09/22/73	2	Texas	FA-00	Ankle
90	Moore	Marty	   LB	6-1	245	03/19/71	8	Kentucky	FA-01	Achilles
99	Ayi	Kole	   LB	6-1	231	09/21/78	R	Massachusetts	FA-01	Leg

The trouble is, I'm not seeing a strong trend. In 2005 the defending Super Bowl Champion NEP were coming off back to back Super Bowls, probably a bit worn down, and wearing a seariously big target on their backs. 2006 was considered a rebuilding year by some, myself included, the Pats were still wearing a bullseye, probably not much smaller considering how the Steelers were self-destructing, and despite those old guys going down still got pretty darned close to winning it all again. In Bill Belichick we trust, and with good reason. Bring on the old farts!

 

[Nefan12345]

Here's my worry - and no one seems to have picked up on it yet - We know (assume) Bill is in the last year of his contract. We also know that Brady restructured his contract to help us get Welker (or was it Thomas?) Anyway - that restructure means Pats have to pay a lot of money or rework Brady's contract come next year. Is there any chance Bill and Brady could both leave together for a new team?

I know it seems ridiculous - but after decades of being a NE sport fan I am kind of trained to watch for the shoe to drop.

 

[Wretch]

Here's my worry - and no one seems to have picked up on it yet - We know (assume) Bill is in the last year of his contract. We also know that Brady restructured his contract to help us get Welker (or was it Thomas?) Anyway - that restructure means Pats have to pay a lot of money or rework Brady's contract come next year. Is there any chance Bill and Brady could both leave together for a new team?

I know it seems ridiculous - but after decades of being a NE sport fan I am kind of trained to watch for the shoe to drop.

I'm as pessimistic as the next NE fan but this isn't a viable scenario in my opinion. There is NO way Kraft lets Brady the face of the franchise walk away while he is still in his prime, and I hope that we never see Tom in another uniform. He should retire as a Pat. I wasn't a 49ers fan but it was tough to see Joe Montana and Ronnie Lott in different uniforms.

As for Bill, why would he go anywhere else? He and Scot have worked very hard to shape the entire organization from the bottom to the top. Why would Bill want to start over from scrtach. I think I can say with relative certainty Bill hates to lose and if he changes teams then he will be taking a step back in that regard. This organization is designed to win now and in a the future and is doesn't need to be blown up and rebuilt like say the Giants.

But hey anything is possible.

 

[mgcolby]

Here's my worry - and no one seems to have picked up on it yet - We know (assume) Bill is in the last year of his contract. We also know that Brady restructured his contract to help us get Welker (or was it Thomas?) Anyway - that restructure means Pats have to pay a lot of money or rework Brady's contract come next year. Is there any chance Bill and Brady could both leave together for a new team?

I know it seems ridiculous - but after decades of being a NE sport fan I am kind of trained to watch for the shoe to drop.

We don't know anything about BB's contract and the only people "ass-uming" either fall into "the sky is falling" crowd or the "we are sick of the Patriots winning" crowd.

Yes, your entire theory is ridiculous.

 

[PatsFan37]

Box,
I think this is a tough one to figure from the stats. You can't look at how many players over 30 went on IR without also knowing how many over 30 were on the roster at the time. Then you'd have to factor in how many snaps were played by players over 30 and whether they were in positions more amenable to aging players (e.g. OL as opposed to RB or DB). On top of that, 30 is just a number. Maybe 32 is a better number, maybe the number varies by position.

All of that says that 'average age' is a useless stat, as is # of players over 30 on IR. More importantly, it's whether the team is dependent on a lot of older players at one position. Which is why I think it's a valid concern for the LBs.

P.S. With all due respect, I'm going to ignore NEfan1-5. Sounds to me like he's been overdosing on Red Sox talk radio and needs some time at the Gilletty Ford clinic.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Here's my worry - and no one seems to have picked up on it yet - We know (assume) Bill is in the last year of his contract. We also know that Brady restructured his contract to help us get Welker (or was it Thomas?) Anyway - that restructure means Pats have to pay a lot of money or rework Brady's contract come next year. Is there any chance Bill and Brady could both leave together for a new team?

I know it seems ridiculous - but after decades of being a NE sport fan I am kind of trained to watch for the shoe to drop.

We don't know that Bill is in his last year, we can't even "assume" it given the various reporting has been nothing more than wild speculation.

Brady restructured his contract to allow the Moss trade; per Miguel's Cap Page Brady is still signed through 2010, that's four seasons of not to worry.

Since the premise for your paranoid horror vision is based on one "fact" documented to be incorrect and one "fact" with no credible news source, I'd say it's time to hit the showers, grab a cold one, and get ready to be excited about Training Camp. :rocker:

p.s. Remember to read Mike Reiss (Globe) and Albert Breer (Herald) before listening to Adam Schefter on a slow news day.

 

[dryheat44]

Here's my worry - and no one seems to have picked up on it yet - We know (assume) Bill is in the last year of his contract. We also know that Brady restructured his contract to help us get Welker (or was it Thomas?) Anyway - that restructure means Pats have to pay a lot of money or rework Brady's contract come next year. Is there any chance Bill and Brady could both leave together for a new team?

I know it seems ridiculous - but after decades of being a NE sport fan I am kind of trained to watch for the shoe to drop.

1. Brady is not a free agent, so I don't understand how he'll be free to leave.
2. If Brady were a free agent, this is the exact scenario the franchise tag was created for.
3. The situations the two are in will never be better. There are very few franchises where the GM can run football operations in virtual autonomy. Tom Brady is the most popular athlete here since Larry Bird. Why would either one leave until retirement?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box,
I think this is a tough one to figure from the stats. You can't look at how many players over 30 went on IR without also knowing how many over 30 were on the roster at the time. Then you'd have to factor in how many snaps were played by players over 30 and whether they were in positions more amenable to aging players (e.g. OL as opposed to RB or DB). On top of that, 30 is just a number. Maybe 32 is a better number, maybe the number varies by position.

All of that says that 'average age' is a useless stat, as is # of players over 30 on IR. More importantly, it's whether the team is dependent on a lot of older players at one position. Which is why I think it's a valid concern for the LBs.

P.S. With all due respect, I'm going to ignore NEfan1-5. Sounds to me like he's been overdosing on Red Sox talk radio and needs some time at the Gilletty Ford clinic.

Sure it's tough to figure, even if I had a clue when it came to stats. The bottom line is BB does know a thing about stats and especially how they apply to the game of football in the NFL, which leaves me the more pleasant task of preparing to enjoy my Patriots this season even with half the team using walkers or wheelchairs. :singing:

As for NEfan12345, this is the first of his 7 posts to catch my eye, we've got regulars here who post similar ill thought out fears, I'll have him join mcbee and patsgo on the ignore list when he gets abusive. Until then, he's cool.

 

[PatsFan37]

Sure it's tough to figure, even if I had a clue when it came to stats. The bottom line is BB does know a thing about stats and especially how they apply to the game of football in the NFL, which leaves me the more pleasant task of preparing to enjoy my Patriots this season even with half the team using walkers or wheelchairs. :singing:

As for NEfan12345, this is the first of his 7 posts to catch my eye, we've got regulars here who post similar ill thought out fears, I'll have him join mcbee and patsgo on the ignore list when he gets abusive. Until then, he's cool.

The age thing is such an individual issue. McGinest had more injury problems when he was younger. I don't want to jinx anyone, foolish superstitious fellow that I am, so I'll avoid names, but a few of the Pats more ancient players keep themselves in good physical shape and have learned that economy of movement for which the elderly are noted.

NEfan12345 is not even close to being a problem, he just needs to take his meds, like the rest of us.

 

[Nefan12345]

You guys make sense...I am trying to remember where I read about Brady's contract restructing and how that makes his cap space very hard to absorb next year (forcing a new contract negotiation). I'll find the link and post it.

Till then - you all have been helpful. I dont want any of this to be possible.

BTW I am a she, (a high school teacher even!) not a he - so go easy on me. I am still figuring it all out. Which is why I love this board!

Editing to add - I found the article that caused the concern...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2859992

Here's the quote:


"Because while the restructuring for this year reduced Brady's 2007 salary-cap charge to $7.346 million, roughly $4 million less than before the deal was redone Sunday morning, it inflated the cap hit for each of the subsequent seasons through 2010. All of the maneuvering with the new six-year, $60 million contract that Brady signed in May of 2005 -- the initial $14.5 million signing bonus, a $12 million option bonus in March 2006 that was converted into a second signing bonus, and Sunday's machinations -- means the quarterback is carrying prohibitive cap charges over the final three seasons of the contract.


Just how prohibitive? Try a cap charge of $14.626 million for 2008.


Without a new deal, Tom Brady's cap number will become a big problem for the Patriots.

Even if the league's spending limit increases to $116 million in 2008, as anticipated, Brady's cap charge, if untouched, would represent a whopping 12.6 percent of the New England budget. By comparison, his cap charge for 2007 is 6.7 percent of a $109 million cap. For owner Bob Kraft, such an excessive amount tied up in one player in 2008 would leave him little recourse.


He would almost certainly have to negotiate a new contract, which could be one of the most lucrative in NFL history, or extend the current deal."