Asante vs. Vasher

[MetalBleachers]

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/06/27/bear_facts_may_hurt_samuel/

 

[DaBruinz]

Can Shavers really be that stupid to believe that Vasher's contract doesn't affect Asante? If ANYTHING, Vasher's extension proves that he's a better player than Asante (which I think is the case). While teams stopped throwing at Vasher last year, teams were still throwing at Asante all year long.

Vasher got his contract because the Bears know what they have in him and he's a proven commodity. The Pats didn't offer Samuel a contract prior to the start of last season because they still didn't know what they had. For all the talk of Samuel's "break out" year, teams were still throwing at him late in the season. They weren't scared of him. And that says a LOT.

 

[BelichickFan]

While I understand that Pro Bowls don't mean everything (ask Ty Warren), it is interesting that a guy who seems to think he's a top three CB in the league has never been to a pro bowl.

Without getting into who is the better player, this is CLEARLY an excellent comp for the two players. Samuel gains a little bargaining power as he's a year into the system (Vasher would have been a UFA in a year). With a reasonable agent and player, Vasher's deal should lead to a quick resolution to this if the Patriots are also reasonable.

 

[Remix 6]

Vasher has been a starter for 2-3 years now? 2 at a high level while Samuel did it 1 year..he was about to be our nickel in his final year with Wilson and Hobbs starting in TC. he was our #2 guy for first quarter of season or so before Hobbs got hurt.

 

[patsgo]

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/06/27/bear_facts_may_hurt_samuel/

you could plug vasher in the pats system and you wouldnt miss a beat, we lost milloy and we won a superbowl. we lost law and we won a super bowl if we lost samuel my opinion is we can win another superbowl

 

[Remix 6]

you could plug vasher in the pats system and you wouldnt miss a beat, we lost milloy and we won a superbowl. we lost law and we won a super bowl if we lost samuel my opinion is we can win another superbowl

if we replaced Law..we can easily replace Samuel.

 

[Grizzafted]

I wouldn't be surprised if Hobbs has a breakout year this year. He was spotty at times last year but he played brilliantly in the AFC game.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Talent and delusional demands aside, I think another thing that hurts Asante's negotiating position is his personality. This team is only going to invest the big bucks in players who bring more than talent to the table. They have to be potential core leaders, on and off the field.

Asante is a quiet guy, I've heard while he's well liked he remains something of a loner in and out of season. He prefers to train at home close to his young family, which he did prior to his contract season. When the team desperately needed a spark in the secondary in 2005, both he and Wilson were MIA. As a rookie Hobbs stepped in and stepped up and helped spark some life back into the unit. Asante was reportedly miffed when Ellis started the season in what he apparently assumed was his position heading into his contract year. Then Hobbs like Tedy broke his wrist and as a result Asante assumed the position. Some here soured on Ellis a bit as a result, but even after the SD game when many others were a little miffed at Ellis, I recall hearing BB say in a PC that "Ellis Hobbs is good for this team".

Ellis is outwardly ****y, although he tempers it with a team spin, but so is Asante - only he's apparently inwardly so and seems to project that into $$$ demands. I recall hearing that when things were looking bleak in one of the playoff games last season Asante got a little emotional in the huddle about guys stepping up and making plays. I think BB would like to see a little more of that Asante, year round before lavishing a big long term deal on him.

Sometimes for players here I think what the system enables them to do gets confused and jumbled in the ego shuffle come contract time. Asante sees himself as a dynamic young CB with 2 SB rings already who replaced Ty freakin' Law on a team that then didn't miss a beat. The guys who run the system, and much of the fan base on the other hand, likely sees a system and staff that allows you to replace even a Pro Bowl cover corner with a reasonably talented and coachable youngster plucked in the 3rd or 4th round.

The truth as usual probably lies somewhere in the middle. But value wise the Patriots seem to have moved lot closer to that midline view than the player thus far. At least on reported average contract value of $6Mper.

 

[Remix 6]

i actually love Hobb's co ckiness. His attitude and desire is great imo

he gets beat..next play watch out for him. kid never gives up..big heart, lot of energy. has fun.

i dont think immature or anything..hes confident and plays big

 

[sieglo]

Asante assumed the position.

Hopefully the Pats will make this happen again with this negotiation. :rocker:

 

[Remix 6]

Hopefully the Pats will make this happen again with this negotiation. :rocker:

Pats make it happen? Its up to Asante to make it happen

 

[FarScapeR]

Pats make it happen? Its up to Asante to make it happen

Get it? Asante assumed the position?

 

[zippo59]

I agree that Shavers is wishfully thinking if he thinks the Vasher extension has NO bearing on Samuel. Though the situations aren't identicle they are similar. They are comparable in terms of ability.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

While I understand that Pro Bowls don't mean everything (ask Ty Warren), it is interesting that a guy who seems to think he's a top three CB in the league has never been to a pro bowl.

Without getting into who is the better player, this is CLEARLY an excellent comp for the two players. Samuel gains a little bargaining power as he's a year into the system (Vasher would have been a UFA in a year). With a reasonable agent and player, Vasher's deal should lead to a quick resolution to this if the Patriots are also reasonable.

Vasher's been a little more consistent a little earlier on, though, which almost makes the positions equal. And apparently we are offering almost the exact same deal (only difference $1M in guarantees) which means we are likely offering a 4-5 year deal. If that places us still well off what he's demanding, then it's unlikely they can close essentially a $9M gap in bonus/guarantees which is likely tied to a longer deal with a higher AAV. I could see them coming up a bit in guaranteed money or AAV and topping Vasher's deal by inches, or even coming up a few million in guaranteed money and splitting the difference in guarantees between Vasher and Bly. If he persists in wanting to top that, he's toast here. They've already apparently come up over $5.5M in guaranteed money, and likely over $1M per in AAV since last fall.

As I said earlier that gets him into the long term cap impact range on this team where he needs to be a lot more than a good system fit at CB to mitigate the long term roster ramifications of that kind of deal. There are only 3 guys on this roster to whom the FO has been willing to commit more than $13M in bonus and guarantees. And there may be 1 or 2 more they have to commit that kind of dough to over the next two seasons. They can do it, but they won't do it just for talent. Gotta be the whole enchilada to crack the mid teens let alone beyond with this organization.

And Shavers is FOS - Asante is home today sticking pins into his little Nathan Vasher voodoo doll while Belichick and Pioli pass each other in the hallways chuckling. This hurt his chances at a mega deal with trading partners as well, so it essentially impacts any leverage his side believed it had to push for a trade as settlement. And if that's the case he may well decide to roll the dice again and come in for his tag salary believing it may represent the only way to firmly increase his market in the long run.

 

[bresna]

I don't get this line:

"Where Samuel separates himself is in the postseason. Vasher has one interception in four postseason contests. Samuel has three in 11 games, all in the last two seasons."

Why does this "separate" them? Vasher's numbers here, if pro-rated to 11 games, are nearly the same. If one considers that during Asante's first 6 playoff games, he had 0 interceptions, Vasher comes out ahead.

 

[bbabin]

Mike Reiss with some more info on the comparison:
[EDIT: This was actually posted by Christopher Gasper on Reiss' Pieces]

I just wanted to add a quick follow-up to today's Asante Samuel piece. It has been pointed out that comparing Nathan Vasher of the Chicago Bears and Dre' Bly of the Denver Broncos to Samuel is not fair because Samuel is a left cornerback and the other two are primarily right cornerbacks.

Don't get sidetracked by the sides. Last season, Samuel spent the first nine games starting at right corner, recording three of his 10 interceptions there. He switched to left cornerback in the 11th game of the season and promptly shined, pulling down three interceptions in a win over the Chicago Bears on Nov. 26 at Gillette Stadium. He played on the left side the rest of the way, including three playoff games, intercepting a total of nine passes -- two in the postseason -- in nine games as a starter on the left side.

Samuel obviously played better at left corner and has gone on record saying he feels more comfortable playing that side. However, the Patriots are big on versatility, so theoretically the left vs. right argument could be used by both sides in negotiations.

Then there is this fact: Nate Clements, the big-money corner Samuel is believed to be basing his contract stance on, started all 16 games at right cornerback last season for the Buffalo Bills.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2007/06/side_ways.html

 

[captain stone]

Every time I hear of Nathan Vasher, I am reminded of Guss Scott. And that pi$$es me off. WTF was the FO thinking?

 

[BelichickFan]

I don't get this line:

"Where Samuel separates himself is in the postseason. Vasher has one interception in four postseason contests. Samuel has three in 11 games, all in the last two seasons."

Why does this "separate" them? Vasher's numbers here, if pro-rated to 11 games, are nearly the same.

Strong point 3 INT in 11 games vs. a prorated 2.75 INT in 11 games. Where's the so-called separation ?

 

[upstater1]

Strong point 3 INT in 11 games vs. a prorated 2.75 INT in 11 games. Where's the so-called separation ?

The separation is in the having done it already, rather than having it projected. It's kind of like comparing Carlos Pena's numbers to David Ortiz's from last year. Pena hasn't done it yet. That's the difference.

I laugh at Shavers' argument. He's saying that a player with one year remaning on the contract should take a hometown discount? LOL, maybe Deion Branch's agent should give him a call soon.

 

[BelichickFan]

The separation is in the having done it already, rather than having it projected. It's kind of like comparing Carlos Pena's numbers to David Ortiz's from last year. Pena hasn't done it yet. That's the difference.

Well that's fine but 3 INT in 11 games is way too small of a sample to be comparing it to a power hitter over multiple full seasons.