A slightly different Moss question

[spacecrime]

Indeed. Oddly enough, I think these two offences are beginning to look remarkably similar. At least on paper. Change Marvin, Reggie and Dallas with Addai in the backfield for Randy, Donte and Ben with Maroney in the backfield. This year's 38-34 might look like a defensive stalemate compared to next year's showdown!!

Wow! You're right:

Harrison - Moss
Wayne - Stallworth
Gonzales - Welker
Clark - Watson
Maroney - Addai

Both teams might as well make the punter inactive, as they each score 7 every time they get the ball.

Regulation ends with the score tied, 133-133.

Whoever wins the OT coin toss scores 6 and wins the game.

 

[brady199]

I'll tell you one thing, I don't think he'd get far chewing Peyton Manning out like he did Culpepper. But the Patriots, having lots of structure and discipline, are a better fit for Moss-at-30 than the laid-back Colts.

Why not?
Reggie Wayne chewed out Peyton pretty good.
And Peyton just stood their like a little school girl in the Ghetto

 

[stattry]

Why not?
Reggie Wayne chewed out Peyton pretty good.
And Peyton just stood their like a little school girl in the Ghetto

This thread lasted just about as long as one could possibly expect without a Manning cheapshot.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That's a REALLY interesting question, Workhorse. I can't answer it with any confidence but I can ask you some questions back as a way of getting clearer.

It seems to me that there are three ways in which the situation for Moss at the Pats might differ from that at the Colts. I would be interested to know how you see them. (I should say that this isn't trying to contrast the Colts unfavourably with the Pats -- you were worthy Superbowl winners last season -- nor taking for granted that the trade for Moss will work out (though I AM optimistic -- see sig).)

First, it's undoubtedly a good thing for Moss that the Patriots have such a negative attitude towards media access. Some guys attract media attention and it hurts and upsets them. It was obvious that Corey Dillon LOVED not having to talk to the media -- the way that he sat there silently and scowled! Obviously, Randy is a different kind of guy, but I hope he realizes that not being able to talk to the media is a blessing for him. Would it be the same in Indianapolis?

Second, there are some senior guys on the Pats who have just as much "swagger" as Randy and won't hesitate to confront him if he gets out of line. OK -- I'm thinking of Rodney Harrison. Are there similar characters in Indy? My impression of Marvin Harrison is that he's more of a quiet perfectionist who leads by example.

Finally, it may be an advantage that the Patriots offense is still very much "under construction". The Colts have a system that works for them and has been refined and refined under the same OC for a very long time. It would surely be a case of fitting Moss to the system rather than adapting the system to Moss.

All of that said, I share the reaction of my fellow Pats fans -- if Moss had gone to Indianapolis, I'd have said that a very good team just got better.

Excellent points Mike. To which I would add the dis-similar situation involved in defending a title rather than avenging just missing out on a title, and Belioli and Kraft vs. the laid back Dungy (who may be gone after this season), the outspoken Polian (who will publicly call a player or unit out in anger and then spend weeks backpedaling), and Irsay who is basically at Polian's mercy.

Not to mention even at a discount they couldn't afford him from a compensation standpoint in cap or trade. They needed their 4th's which were nearly 5ths anyway to fill vacancies on defense they couldn't avoid or fill in FA because of existing cap concerns even after the obvious restructures.

 

[shmessy]

Wow! You're right:

Harrison - Moss
Wayne - Stallworth
Gonzales - Welker
Clark - Watson
Maroney - Addai

Both teams might as well make the punter inactive, as they each score 7 every time they get the ball.

Regulation ends with the score tied, 133-133.

Whoever wins the OT coin toss scores 6 and wins the game.

One thing that is left out of that equation:

The Pats D is head and shoulders over the Indy D.

Indy has experience some defection this offseason on D, while the Pats have made some nice pickups in Thomas, Meriweather and James.

While the offenses are now very comparable, I don't see the D's in the same class with each other.

 

[Rob0729]

Considering I am not as overjoyed of the acquisition of Moss as many other people are, I guess my reaction would be measured. I just don't know if Moss is this elite WR anymore. I think he is a good WR, but I am not convinced that the last three years was because he was upset with his situation or the talent around him.

I personally think Moss is more suited for the Colts' offense. They run a more vertical offense than we do. Granted he would have to fight for playing time.

I am not convinced you change your offense to accomodate Moss when it doesn't give Brady the opportunity to exploit his talents best. Brady is "The Franchise" and Moss is as of right now is an one year player who may or may not be here in 2008. I think they will find a role for Moss, but there will be no Randy Ratio in New England.

So I could actually see Moss being more impactful with the Colts although most likely not.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

I am not convinced you change your offense to accomodate Moss when it doesn't give Brady the opportunity to exploit his talents best.

You know all those long passes Brady has sent downfield over the past 3 years only to be dropped by one ***** head receiver or another????

Moss catches those. They wont change their offense but it will allow them to complete those deep passes.

 

[Rob0729]

You know all those long passes Brady has sent downfield over the past 3 years only to be dropped by one ***** head receiver or another????

Moss catches those. They wont change their offense but it will allow them to complete those deep passes.

Moss works better in a vertical offense with a lot of fades and go routes. In all the highlights that they have shown on Moss since Sunday has anyone seen him run a route that didn't have him basically running in a straight line down the field?

I do think Moss can be a deep threat for the Pats, but I am not convinced that he will be much more than a deep pass specialist. Granted, even if he is, we got our money's worth.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I do think Moss can be a deep threat for the Pats, but I am not convinced that he will be much more than a deep pass specialist. Granted, even if he is, we got our money's worth.

I rather prefer to think of Moss as a TD maker more than anything. I see those 101 career TD's of his and figure he's easily good for 15 TD's with Brady tossing him the rock. I would think that most would be scored via the deep pass and when in the red zone but how those TD's are attained doesn't really matter so long as they are made.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

Granted, even if he is, we got our money's worth.

On top of that he will require a double team every time he runs a route....

Who is better than Tom Brady at going through his reads???

 

[zoostation]

I'd say something I never actually believed in the past....and that is The Colts are now better than the Patriots.

I'd think you were getting a non team guy who would but you on top again. My tune iabout him being non team is different now that he's a Pat. I can admit that.

 

[Barnsie]

I'd say that Randy Moss is a good fit for IND for the same reason that I think he is a good fit for the Patriots. There aren't too many other teams that I would say that about though.

Oh, and I would be extremely disappointed/worried that IND got Moss.

 

[workhorse]

That's a REALLY interesting question, Workhorse. I can't answer it with any confidence but I can ask you some questions back as a way of getting clearer.

It seems to me that there are three ways in which the situation for Moss at the Pats might differ from that at the Colts. I would be interested to know how you see them. (I should say that this isn't trying to contrast the Colts unfavourably with the Pats -- you were worthy Superbowl winners last season -- nor taking for granted that the trade for Moss will work out (though I AM optimistic -- see sig).)

First, it's undoubtedly a good thing for Moss that the Patriots have such a negative attitude towards media access. Some guys attract media attention and it hurts and upsets them. It was obvious that Corey Dillon LOVED not having to talk to the media -- the way that he sat there silently and scowled! Obviously, Randy is a different kind of guy, but I hope he realizes that not being able to talk to the media is a blessing for him. Would it be the same in Indianapolis?

Second, there are some senior guys on the Pats who have just as much "swagger" as Randy and won't hesitate to confront him if he gets out of line. OK -- I'm thinking of Rodney Harrison. Are there similar characters in Indy? My impression of Marvin Harrison is that he's more of a quiet perfectionist who leads by example.

Finally, it may be an advantage that the Patriots offense is still very much "under construction". The Colts have a system that works for them and has been refined and refined under the same OC for a very long time. It would surely be a case of fitting Moss to the system rather than adapting the system to Moss.

All of that said, I share the reaction of my fellow Pats fans -- if Moss had gone to Indianapolis, I'd have said that a very good team just got better.

I don't think that the media issue would be a big deal in Indy. The Colts own the town now. Coming off the Super Bowl and with the current state of the Pacers, Indy is the Colts town. And when you throw in the pretty soft coverage that they generally get anyway, I think Moss would do fine.

The Colts have several leaders on their team, but most of it is never shown to the outside world, so it's hard to say who would be the most likely to keep him in line. The Patriots have a larger group of more senior guys in the role, so that may be one where New England fits better.

I'm not sure about your last point. The biggest benefit for the Pats in this regard may be the fact that there really isn't a food chain in place for the receivers yet. If he came to Indy, he would have to compete more to create his place in the offense. Moss would have to carve into Reggie and Marvin's numbers a bit to get it going. Though it would be interesting.

 

[dhamz]

I personally think Moss is more suited for the Colts' offense. They run a more vertical offense than we do. Granted he would have to fight for playing time.

This is a myth. A popular myth but a myth.

In the last 3 years here are the numbers:
Passes over 40 yards:
Brady - 27
Manning - 26

Passes over 20 yards:
Brady - 157
Manning - 166

 

[dhamz]

To answer the question: It would have been a good value move for the Colts.

I think it has the potential to be a much more significant move for the Pats than it would have been for the Colts simply because the upgrade from the guy opposite Stallworth (Gaffney or Caldwell or Washington) to Moss is enormous. The upgrade from Wayne to Moss - well that might not be an upgrade based on Wayne experience in the system.

 

[brdmaverick]

I personally think that Moss would thrive in Indy just as I expect him to thrive in New England. I would be pissed if he went to the Colts because believe it or not, I have always been a Moss fan. The only thing worse would be seeing him go to the Steelers.

Anyways, I think your point is valid though, because I think if Moss joined another team they would continue to say the things that were being said about him on this board BEFORE he joined the Pats such as......

1.) His attitude will ruin team chemistry.
2.) He is a one trick pony. (deep route)
3.) He is too injury prone.
4.) He is aging and is just not even a great receiver anymore.

 

[spacecrime]

I think if Moss joined another team they would continue to say the things that were being said about him on this board BEFORE he joined the Pats such as......

1.) His attitude will ruin team chemistry.
2.) He is a one trick pony. (deep route)
3.) He is too injury prone.
4.) He is aging and is just not even a great receiver anymore.

Hmm. Now I know all sorts of wild things get said, and it may be that someone once said Moss was not a great receiver anymore, but I don't recall it. Can you give me a link to threads where that was said? I'm kind of curious to see if it was a "real" poster, or one of those stir-the-pot posts. Also, I don't recall anyone saying before he came here that he could only run deep routes. I know someone has said it since, but of course it is wrong. Moss goes in motion, and often runs out of the slot. Just rewatch the highlights that bombarded us last few days adn see him run acrosss the flat.

Likewise, someone may have said he is injury prone, but so what? That doesn't make it so. In nine years, Moss missed a total of 6 games, three with the Vikes and three with the Raiders. So I guess I'd like to get a link to the injury prone thread, also, and see if it was a real poster, or a just troll like Aqua4never or one of those Colts pot stirrers just trying to be jerks.

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

This is a serious question about Moss. If the situation was different and the Colts had been the one to land Moss, how would people around here think or Moss and his value? This may have been mentioned in one of previous thread, but there are a ton of post and this is a specific question.

I think it will be interesting to see how he does in a different environment. He has never been in the situation that he will be in with the Pats. With the Vikings, it was Randy's team. Granted Culpepper was there, but Moss was the first player that you thought of when the Vikings came up. With Oakland it was the bad attitude Randy almost right off the bat. Now he comes into a team situation with the Pats that he hasn't seen before. A proven winner, with a clear cut set of leaders. It should be interesting. Especially to see if he can just turn it back on considering that it has been several yeaars since we have seen the Randy Moss that everyone feared.

But back to the question. If he were now a Colt, would you think he would become the old Randy or just another good receiver? What do you think the impact would be on the "team" structure with the Colts and their locker room? Once again, this is a serious question and I'm curious to see what you guys think. If you don't like the topic or that I'm a Colts fan, don't waste your time flaming me, just move on to the next thread please and thank you.

Interesting question. Firstly I'd think it was a starnge move by the Colts seeing as they have such a good WR corp in place already and why take a risk on Moss. Off the top I think Dungy's a bit too laid back and might have trouble maintaining the reins on a strong personality like Moss. Also Polian's a bit of an eccentric <g> so I'm not sure how that would play out. Some say Polian's another Al Davis (jk lol).
Peyton would definitely get him the ball that's for sure;it's the rest of it I'd question. jmo though- I don't follow the Colts in depth,or at least not enough to know about their intangibles which with a player like Moss,seem to loom pretty large as far as affecting his success.
I think here is where he will have the BEST chance to succeed,but the Colts would definitely be my second vote. Pats then Colts would be his best chance out of all.

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

I always wished TO had gone to Cowher,just for the potential entertainment value but I agree,I wouldn't want to see Moss there.

 

[VJCPatriot]

If the Colts gave up the same (a 4th round pick and 5 million) I would think it would be a no-brainer move.

He would be on a winning team with a great QB.

Difference being it would be bad for the Pats.


BTW why the *** didnt the Colts address their defensive needs?????

Because they felt it was more important to add a slot receiver to keep their offense potent. Colts are offensive oriented. That kinda worked for them last season, but I think their defense playing out of their minds in games they were supposed to be run all over was what really got them the trophy. Bob Sanders is their real playoff MVP.

Well, first of all Randy Moss wouldn't have even fit into the Colts cap situation. You need to "create" cap space before you can make the trade, which is why Brady had to restructure.

I think Moss would have succeeded in the Colts system offensively speaking but it is obvious that he desired to play only in New England. And that's where I like him to be. In this offense he is instantly the #1 receiver, although he does not have to be the #1 player. He doesn't have to be the leader. That role is already taken so I think Moss will like the fact that he won't have to carry this team or be the leader.