Kraft stumping for London team (say it ain't so, Bob)

[SB39]

As far as LA goes, the issue to me is always that the people that live there already follow one NFL team or another. It isn't like they don't get to watch games there. If Jacksonville suddenly moved to LA would a bunch of new fans suddenly discover the NFL and start watching them on tv? I don't really think so.

I agree. Any team that moved to L.A. would likely increase in value, but I doubt the league as a whole would benefit all that much. This isn't baseball where a major market club brings higher ratings and the tv networks pray for New York or Chicago or L.A. to be in the finals.

I think the gains for the league would be minimal. If they were significant, then it would have been done already.

 

[SB39]

I think San Antonio could make an awesome football town!

I believe to this day that if it wasn't for Hurricane Katrina, the Saints would be in San Antonio.

 

[Jackson 2]

I believe to this day that if it wasn't for Hurricane Katrina, the Saints would be in San Antonio.

Respectfully disagree. I've been to NOLA pre-Katrina and post-Katrina for games, most recently when the Pats played there in November of '09 (we got killed.). The Saints are and always have been, even when they were the Ain'ts, woven into the fabric of that city. They're not going anywhere.

 

[SB39]

Respectfully disagree. I've been to NOLA pre-Katrina and post-Katrina for games, most recently when the Pats played there in November of '09 (we got killed.). The Saints are and always have been, even when they were the Ain'ts, woven into the fabric of that city.

So were the Baltimore Colts, Houston Oilers and Cleveland Browns but when other cities offered them free stadiums, the "fabric of the city" gave way to fiscal reality.

I agree they are not going anywhere now, and it obviously didn't happen 10 years ago (at least not on a permanent basis). I just don't think many people realize how close it came to happening when the Saints couldn't get the Superdome upgrades they wanted and San Antonio was offering them the world.

 

[Zeus]

The middle ground between growing and not growing is stable revenue, which means ever decreasing profits in a competitive world with any inflation at all.

Why would you assume inflationary growth in costs but no corresponding inflationary growth in revenue?

 

[mgteich]

Why would you assume inflationary growth in costs but no corresponding inflationary growth in revenue?

I do not assume that one can always simply pass on costs in increased ticket prices.

 

[mgteich]

1) Either Jacksonville or Tampa Bay needs to move. They are both near the bottom of teams in profitability (only Detroit actually loses money). Both franchises would be more valuable if one of them move. Given the lack of support by the fans, Jacksonville is the logical team to move.

2) I don't think that LA is the answer. They don't support NFL teams well. In any case, San Diego is close to LA.

3) I don't think that there are a lot of untapped US markets. The NFL is already extremely popular in Canada, but the CFL is more popular (#2, and #3 sports). BTW, the CFL once had a division in the US. I don't think that there would be a net gain by moving Buffalo to Toronto. The team is already an hour or so from Toronto. I'm sure that lots in Canada follow the team. The case is likely similar in Detroit (Windsor) and Seattle (Vancouver).

4) There is no question that a team in London would bring lots more TV and advertising revenue from Europe. I agree that one team is the first step. I also think that a UK division makes more sense than a European division. I don't expect this for 10-15 years.

CONCLUSION
The NFL must decide where the increased revenue will come from. More US money is one option. I don't see where that will come from after the regular season is expanded. Canada is certainly an option, at the expense of Canada #2 sport, Canadian football. London and Mexico City are the other options. I would expect the choice to come down to London or Toronto.

I believe the long term goal would be to have a division in Europe, but the NFL won't start that way. They will move Jacksonville there, see how successfull it is and then decide what is next.

As far as LA goes, the issue to me is always that the people that live there already follow one NFL team or another. It isn't like they don't get to watch games there. If Jacksonville suddenly moved to LA would a bunch of new fans suddenly discover the NFL and start watching them on tv? I don't really think so. Could that team be more successful than Jacksonville, of course, but really it doesn't really suddenly expose 740 million people (Europe's population) to a sport they currently only have limited access to. That is what has the NFL owners licking their lips.

Put it this way, I understand both soccer and football. Football is so much better to watch on tv, it is a sport that is perfect for television. If the NFL can get Europeans to understand the game they will watch it. The best way to get them to understand it is to get a team into Europe and expose them to it.

 

[AzorianPats]

I think there are only 2 teams that can move to L.A. That's the Raiders or Rams. Which both BTW have a good chance. Raiders are losing the battle to build a new stadium up in Oakland, while the Rams have very little support in St Louis, and are too having issues building a new stadium. If I was to bet, I think its going to be the Raiders. Oakland is a terrible sports town, and the Raiders have deep ties to LA already. They are the most popular team in Southern California.

Besides LA, 2 other cities I'd like to see get an NFL team are San Antonio and Portland. The Pacific North west is a hotbed for sports. Look at how Portland always supported the Trail Blazers and now the MLS team. That would be a great spot, put them in the NFC west and have them build rivalries with the Seahawks and 49ers.

I think where we can all agree, their are way too many teams in the south.

 

[AzorianPats]

1) Either Jacksonville or Tampa Bay needs to move. They are both near the bottom of teams in profitability (only Detroit actually loses money). Both franchises would be more valuable if one of them move. Given the lack of support by the fans, Jacksonville is the logical team to move.

2) I don't think that LA is the answer. They don't support NFL teams well. In any case, San Diego is close to LA.

3) I don't think that there are a lot of untapped US markets. The NFL is already extremely popular in Canada, but the CFL is more popular (#2, and #3 sports). BTW, the CFL once had a division in the US. I don't think that there would be a net gain by moving Buffalo to Toronto. The team is already an hour or so from Toronto. I'm sure that lots in Canada follow the team. The case is likely similar in Detroit (Windsor) and Seattle (Vancouver).

4) There is no question that a team in London would bring lots more TV and advertising revenue from Europe. I agree that one team is the first step. I also think that a UK division makes more sense than a European division. I don't expect this for 10-15 years.

CONCLUSION
The NFL must decide where the increased revenue will come from. More US money is one option. I don't see where that will come from after the regular season is expanded. Canada is certainly an option, at the expense of Canada #2 sport, Canadian football. London and Mexico City are the other options. I would expect the choice to come down to London or Toronto.

I think Toronto would support an NFL team. But regarding the Bills support up their, maybe its because they've sucked for so long, but I have a lot of relatives up in Ontario, I know both the Pats and Giants have a lot of support their. And closer you get to Windsor the Lions as well. All more so than the Bills.

 

[lurker1965]

Eh. Once a month an owner promotes the London franchise idea. Why? I don't know but I cynically think there i$ $ome rea$on. Once a team is in LA we need a new bogey man to scare cities into building new stadiums. London will be that bogey man.

 

[lurker1965]

I think there are only 2 teams that can move to L.A. That's the Raiders or Rams. ...

That's what I thought, then I looked at the history of teams moving to L.A.
Minneapolis Lakkers - NBA champs and much beloved
LA Kings nee Edmonton Oilers - Stanley cup champs and much beloved
Brooklyn Dodgers - recent World Series champs and much beloved
Cleveland Rams - NFL champs and much beloved
The only team to generate a shrug in its home market was the San Diego Clippers.

L.A. steals winning and beloved teams. L.A Steelers or LA. Saints. LA. Ravens or L.A. Cowboys.

Lousy teams need not apply. L.A. does not steal crap.

I know Robert would not move the Patriots, but would Jonathan?

 

[Zeus]

That's what I thought, then I looked at the history of teams moving to L.A.
Minneapolis Lakkers - NBA champs and much beloved
LA Kings nee Edmonton Oilers - Stanley cup champs and much beloved
Brooklyn Dodgers - recent World Series champs and much beloved
Cleveland Rams - NFL champs and much beloved
The only team to generate a shrug in its home market was the San Diego Clippers.

L.A. steals winning and beloved teams. L.A Steelers or LA. Saints. LA. Ravens or L.A. Cowboys.

Lousy teams need not apply. L.A. does not steal crap.

I know Robert would not move the Patriots, but would Jonathan?

The LA Kings were never in Edmonton.

The Kings were one of the six teams added in the NHL's first big expansion when the league went from six to twelve teams for the 1967-68 season. The Edmonton Oilers were one of four franchises added in 1979 as part of the merger between the WHA and the NHL.

 

[Zeus]

I do not assume that one can always simply pass on costs in increased ticket prices.

In recent years, margins have been increasing, largely due to to the ever increasing television contract receipts. Of course, there is no guarantee that this will continue inn the future.

The most likely scenario for decreasing margins would be for people to stop buying tickets and watch the games on television, something that the league has expresses concern about. With margins shrinking in this manner, it would be difficult to find new investors needed to expand the league anywhere. That's a problem you probably can't grow your way out of.

 

[Zeus]

The issue is how growth into overseas markets would increase revenue and profits. Expanding into two new cities in the US (say San Antonio and LA) would increase the number of regular season games played by 6.25% (272 vs. 256). There is little potential to grow revenue or profits on a per team basis.

Expansion overseas would open up new markets for television and merchandising (the two biggest components of the revenue that is equally shared by all teams). For this to benefit the existing owners, the growth in shared revenue would have to exceed to proportional growth in teams added/games played (6.25 % in the two team scenario).

This is by no means a slam dunk. Different networks, different advertisers, different languages -it's not scalable the way it is in the US where Budweiser can run the same adds all over the country.

 

[1960Pats]

Tunescribe, i have always considerd you one of the better poster's on this site, in this instance however I feel like you have some unknown need to try and insult soccer fans by consistently deriding the sport and that's a shame because it is really lame imo.

What's really a shame is that a thread about the NFL moving to London has turned into yet another kickball promotion.

Question: Why do soccer fans feel that they're boring sport is above criticism? Especially here on a NFL football site in a thread about football?

Too bad us football fans don't have a Mighty Mouse to protect our threads like kickball fans do.

 

[Ivan]

What's really a shame is that a thread about the NFL moving to London has turned into yet another kickball promotion.

Question: Why do soccer fans feel that they're boring sport is above criticism? Especially here on a NFL football site in a thread about football?

Too bad us football fans don't have a Mighty Mouse to protect our threads like kickball fans do.

It's a shame you guys are so insecure about football, soccer is a great game yet you feel compelled to sh.t on it any time you get the chance and that is simply a sign of insecurity.

 

[1960Pats]

In recent years, margins have been increasing, largely due to to the ever increasing television contract receipts. Of course, there is no guarantee that this will continue inn the future.

The most likely scenario for decreasing margins would be for people to stop buying tickets and watch the games on television, something that the league has expresses concern about. With margins shrinking in this manner, it would be difficult to find new investors needed to expand the league anywhere. That's a problem you probably can't grow your way out of.

If the NFL is concerned about losing fans at the stadium then they're going about fixing the problem in the wrong way. The live game experience is becoming less and less popular. I used to go to games to get that live in-game feeling, but now the live games are like watching at home but without the clicker to get away from the commercials. The loud noise is a constant annoyance and the TV timeout delays are plentiful. And getting in and out of any of our major sports venues is a disaster.

 

[Ivan]

If the NFL is concerned about losing fans at the stadium then they're going about fixing the problem in the wrong way. The live game experience is becoming less and less popular. I used to go to games to get that live in-game feeling, but now the live games are like watching at home but without the clicker to get away from the commercials. The loud noise is a constant annoyance and the TV timeout delays are plentiful. And getting in and out of any of our major sports venues is a disaster.

So you are recommending that they get rid of the people and the noise so you can watch the game quietly and get in and out easily?

 

[1960Pats]

It's a shame you guys are so insecure about football, soccer is a great game yet you feel compelled to sh.t on it any time you get the chance and that is simply a sign of insecurity.

Oh stop it with the insecurity baloney. Here we are in a thread about the NFL moving to London and soccer fans need it to become another soccer advertisement. It's pretty damn obvious that soccer fans are the most insecure of them all.

Also, I think that having a World Cup thread closed to negative threads about the game of soccer is the epitome of insecurity. I think anyone can see that.

In a nutshell, soccer is boring to me, and the word great never comes to mind on the rare occasion that I think about the game. I was hoping that it wouldn't come up in this football thread, but like I said earlier, I don't have a guardian angel or a Mighty Mouse to protect me from the soccerphants.

And let me ask again, and maybe you can avoid dancing around the answer this time. What makes soccer fans feel so special that their game is above criticism?

 

[1960Pats]

So you are recommending that they get rid of the people and the noise so you can watch the game quietly and get in and out easily?

The noise isn't coming from the fans. It's coming from the too loud music and advertisements. Do you even go to games?

At least the games are fun to watch, unlike some sports.