Zach Moore or Michael Sam?

[Christiancat]

I never said you were not a fan of the Patriots, but you that is not your motivation for coming on here, you began here when Tebow signed, and since you have basically only engaged in conversations that pertain to Tebow or the San Francisco 49ers. I am not sure why my stating actual occurrences are so upsetting to you.

You either quoted my post or disliked my post, either way I did not begin this interaction.

I was thinking the same thing about you. I am not sure why you come onto an internet forum intended for discussions and debate and then have a conniption when someone does not agree with what you have to say. That is all I have done here, is disagree with you about Tebow, and that created this reaction, you would think I called you names or attacked you, nope I disagreed with your opinion on Tim Tebow.

Until they disagree with something you write about Tim Tebow, then you will tell them how very wrong you were about them and send them off to pastor. Name dropping is your thing huh?

There is nothing to debate. Tebow was a great college player, and he is yet to be successful in the NFL. How in the world is that even in dispute?

I brought up Tebow because he was a great college player like Michael Sam to show an example of a player that had great success at the college level and failed in the NFL. SEA_PAT asked why Tebow was the poster boy for that example and I explained why.

I am acknowledging Tebow’s career both in college and in the NFL, I used the word “great” when referring to his college career that is not a word generally used by someone who is bashing a person. He has not done well at the NFL level, and him being a great college player that did not translate to NFL success made him a good example for the Michael Sam situation. If you think reviewing someone football performance is bashing I do not know what to tell you but the things I said about Tebow were actualities, I was not offering an opinion I was explain occurrences. You do not like those occurrences and therefore you have become angry with me over it.

You are not an easy poster to get along with unless the poster is agreeing with what you say about Tim Tebow, otherwise you are nearly impossible to get along with because you are overly emotional and take everything as a personal attack on Tebow. It is really ridiculous, that you let a man you have never even met determine how you interact with other people to the degree that you begrudge them based their opinion of Tebow.

I was the one that said last year after Tebow was released that I hope you and his supporters stick around, so I am not sure what makes you think I do not want you to here, I want you to stop flipping out on me if I mention something that happened in Tebow’s career.

Huh? You are really making this way more than it is, like this is much heavier than I thought.

The only person dictating to anyone is you and this is an example of that. Also this “why don’t you leave Timmy alone” nonsense is so petty.

That is good for you. I do not idolize another man and follow him around defending. You making any mention of what is an acceptable behavior are hilarious, or commenting on my talking about a certain player repeatedly wow that is pee in your pants funny, I have barely mentioned Amendola in months, 95% of your posts are about one player Tim Tebow.

Rivers is not out of the NFL and Brees has never been involved in a sexual assault, smoking weed, or wearing another team’s hat, so I am not surprised they are not talked about as much in here.

Honestly I am really disappointed in you, the fact that you would take a discussion about Tebow and turn it personal because you did not like the things I said about the player is really sad and pathetic. I did not think you were so self consumed that someone not sharing your view would anger you. I thought you were a good person, someone who understood that people did not always agree but they could still get along. I sincerely liked you as a person, and held you in high regard right up until this post, the other posts they did not even bother me, I saw them as a discussion/debate but this post is just a major shift.

I am going to reply here and I going to ask that you click ignore and I click ignore. Two people have to click ignore for this to work not just one.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10840851/jim-harbaugh-speaks-investigation-colin-kaepernick

The link above shows what harbaugh think of the Colin Kaepernik case.

Let me get something straight. Just because you don't like Colin doesn't immediately make he a rapist, murderer, thug, drug addict or whatever.

quote from shemessy in Colin Kapernik thread: Let's be careful with that. Where was it reported that they were ALL smoking weed?

quote from bravo777 As much as I don't like Kaepernick, he is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not saying all sexual assault cases are false but, sometimes people lie in order to get a payday.

Quote from Deus: I don't know if this was pointed out before, but it's important enough to repeat in any event:

“There’s no evidence of a crime or a sexual assault,” Pimental said. “This report is simply an incident report taken at the woman’s request.”
Miami police call initial report on Kaepernick 'out of context' | ProFootballTalk

Pimental is the Miami Police spokesman."

quote from shemessy"
"Does not necessarily mean ALL the players. Could have been one or two or all three.

I'll withhold making a definitive statement until there is more real proof there. Remember, this is a testimony from someone who hasn't been clear as to what actually happened to her.

It's still too unclear."


My thoughts: I will wait until the investigation is complete before a make a judgements on Colin's allegations. If it is proven in a court of law that Colin sexually assaulted someone than I say give him jail time and fines. Just as I would say for anyone who commits such an act and is proven to have done so.

Just because you don't like someone doesn't automatically make them a murderer, druggie, rapist etc. It has to be proven in a court of law with evidence etc


I don't care for Richard Sherman at all an I am not a fan of his. However, if TMZ reported that he was possibly involved in a drive by shooting, sexual assault etc. I would wait until the investigations on those incidents concluded before i start shouting murderer, rapist etc.

Not everyone cares that Colin wore another teams hat. I work for a big Accounting firm and If I wanted to wear another Accounting firms hat in my off time I will do so if I so choose.


For this ignore thing to work we both have to put each other on ignore.

We clearly are not going to agree on anything. Your going to continue to call any NFL player that you don't like some type of thug or criminal etc. You are going to continue to act like you are superior to other posters on the forum because you have over 8,000 posts and talk about the Patriots more than most. So you enjoy yourself.

Please hit ignore and I will because this will just continue to go nowhere like it has been.

 

[Brady6]

I am going to reply here and I going to ask that you click ignore and I click ignore. Two people have to click ignore for this to work not just one.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10840851/jim-harbaugh-speaks-investigation-colin-kaepernick

The link above shows what harbaugh think of the Colin Kaepernik case.

Let me get something striaght. Just because you don't like Colin dosen't immedatiely make he a rapist, murderer, thus, drug addict or whatever.

quote from shemess in Colin Kapernik thread: Let's be careful with that. Where was it reported that they were ALL smoking weed?

quote from bravo77 As much as I don't like Kaepernick, he is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not saying all sexual assault cases are false but, sometimes people lie in order to get a payday.

Quote from: I don't know if this was pointed out before, but it's important enough to repeat in any event:

“There’s no evidence of a crime or a sexual assault,” Pimental said. “This report is simply an incident report taken at the woman’s request.”
Miami police call initial report on Kaepernick 'out of context' | ProFootballTalk

Pimental is the Miami Police spokesman.

quote from shemessy"
"Does not necessarily mean ALL the players. Could have been one or two or all three.

I'll withhold making a definitive statement until there is more real proof there. Remember, this is a testimony from someone who hasn't been clear as to what actually happened to her.

It's still too unclear."


I will wait until the investigation is complete before a make a judgements on colins allegations. If it is proven in a court of law that Colin sexually assaulted someone than I say give him jail time and fines. Just as I would say for anyone who commits such an act an d is proven to have done so.

Just because you don't like someone doesn't automatically make them a murderer, druggie, rapist etc. It has to be proven in a court of law with evidence etc


I don't care for Richard Sherman at all an I am not a fan of his. However, if TMZ reported that he was possibly involved in a drive by shooting, sexual assault etc. I would wait until the investigations on those incidents concluded before i start shouting murderer, rapist etc.

Not eveeryone care that colin wore another teams hat. I work for a big Accounting firm. If I wanted to wear another Accounting firms hat in my off time I will do so if I so choose.


For this ignore thing to work we both have to put each other on ignore.

We clearly are not going to agree on anything. Your going to continue to call any NFL player that you don't like some type of thug or criminal. You are going to continue to act like you are superior to other posters on the forum because you have over 8,000 posts and talk about the Patriots more than most. So you enjoy yourself.

Please hit ignore and I will because this will just continue to go nowhere like it has been.

Who have I called a thug or criminal? Colin Kaepernick was involved in a sexual assault investigation, was he not? That is why he is discussed on this board more than Drew Brees.

As far as having to be convicted. You have conceded Hernandez guilt without a trial or conviction. You say things are a certain way when they are convenient for you and support your position. Otherwise you are do the same thing that my friend is called a hypercrite.

As far as ignoring you, I am not going to because I am not angry at you for having an opinion that differs from yours. I can engage in a discussion with another adult without having a melt down if they do not click agree to everything they say. You are out of control here, making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[Avenger]

Who have I called a thug or criminal? Colin Kaepernick was involved in a sexual assault investigation, was he not? That is why he is discussed on this board more than Drew Brees.

As far as having to be convicted. You have conceded Hernandez guilt without a trial or conviction. You say things are a certain way when they are convenient for you and support your position. Otherwise you are do the same thing that my friend is called a hypercrite.

As far as ignoring you, I am not going to because I am not angry at you for having an opinion that differs from yours. I can engage in a discussion with another adult without having a melt down if they do not click agree to everything they say. You are out of control here, making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Julian Edelman had some false accusations against him, and it's unclear if there actually is an accusation against him, wouldn't be the first time TMZ has blown anything out of proportion. This isn't a court of justice, so yes everybody is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but that doesn't stop outside speculation and there is much more evidence publicly available showing that Hernandez is probably guilty and a whole lot of nothing in regards to Kaepernick's case.

 

[Avenger]

The premise of the conversation was around players with great college production that did not have success in the NFL. Tebow defines that, he was considered one of the best college players ever and he failed in the NFL, he was out of the league within 4 years. Tebow was the QB of an 8-8 team that snuck into the playoffs, the team since Tebow is 26-6 in the regular season, and has won an AFC Championship in the two years since. The team that the playoff win came against was the Steelers who have gone 16-16 over the past two seasons and have not made the playoffs since. Tebow has a career completion percentage of 47.9%, and at the age of 26 years old is out of the league due to his poor performance.

Ryan Leaf was a bigger failure, but he was not considered a great college player, he was drafted based on raw talent, not college production.

Tebow is the poster boy for great college players that went on to failure in the NFL. There is not bigger example of it ever than Tim Tebow.

If you are going to quote records, quote the record while he started, he took a team that was 1-4 and went 7-4 and won a playoff game, he had some limited success, don't make it out like he had no success at all, many higher drafted players had less success than him.

 

[Brady6]

Julian Edelman had some false accusations against him, and it's unclear if there actually is an accusation against him, wouldn't be the first time TMZ has blown anything out of proportion. This isn't a court of justice, so yes everybody is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but that doesn't stop outside speculation and there is much more evidence publicly available showing that Hernandez is probably guilty and a whole lot of nothing in regards to Kaepernick's case.

When Julian Edelman had those accusations made against him there were threads opened to discuss it. I did not say Kaepernick was guilty of any wrong doing, I said that if Brees and Rivers had been involved in a sexual assault investigation, associated with a party with drugs, and seen wearing another teams hat, they would have been discussed on the board. Since they were not it is not surprising that Kaepernick is more of a topic on here.

It does not matter if there is things to show Hernandez guilt or not, you cannot come on here and say you do not judge people until a conviction is made when you have judged Hernandez multiple times, which was the case for the poster I was responding to.

 

[Brady6]

If you are going to quote records, quote the record while he started, he took a team that was 1-4 and went 7-4 and won a playoff game, he had some limited success, don't make it out like he had no success at all, many higher drafted players had less success than him.

So what you are saying is Tebow is only judged on the games he was the starting QB but the other members of the Broncos and Jets are judged on the teams overall record during that same time? Does that mean Ryan Mallett has a career win/loss of 0-0 in the NFL?

Tim Tebow physically appeared in 35 games of a possible 48 games during his three seasons in the NFL. He went onto the field as part of a team. In those 35 games, that he participated in (took snaps) his teams were 13-22. He had roles, and could have helped his team win, he did not, he was not successful in the NFL, successful players who are not injured are not out of the NFL after 3 seasons.

I get that you and others like Tebow, I respect that, heck I do not even dislike Tebow he seems like a really great guy, but he was not a successful NFL player. When talking about a player like Michael Sam who was a great college player Tebow is a good comparison of how that does not translate to the NFL. That was my only point, I am not interested in having a debate about a player who has not played a down since 2012.

 

[Avenger]

So what you are saying is Tebow is only judged on the games he was the starting QB but the other members of the Broncos and Jets are judged on the teams overall record during that same time? Does that mean Ryan Mallett has a career win/loss of 0-0 in the NFL?

Tim Tebow physically appeared in 35 games of a possible 48 games during his three seasons in the NFL. He went onto the field as part of a team. In those 35 games, that he participated in (took snaps) his teams were 13-22. He had roles, and could have helped his team win, he did not, he was not successful in the NFL, successful players who are not injured are not out of the NFL after 3 seasons.

I get that you and others like Tebow, I respect that, heck I do not even dislike Tebow he seems like a really great guy, but he was not a successful NFL player. When talking about a player like Michael Sam who was a great college player Tebow is a good comparison of how that does not translate to the NFL. That was my only point, I am not interested in having a debate about a player who has not played a down since 2012.

When you quote a QBs record you use games they started, it's a widely accepted practice. Yes Mallet has a 0-0 record as a starter, when you look at Brady's win loss record you don't count games that Bledsoe started and you don't count games where Vince Young was on the bench for Joe Montana as his stats. I didn't come here for a Tebow discussion either, but I will point out when somebody is moving the goalposts.

 

[Brady6]

When you quote a QBs record you use games they started, it's a widely accepted practice. Yes Mallet has a 0-0 record as a starter, when you look at Brady's win loss record you don't count games that Bledsoe started and you don't count games where Vince Young was on the bench for Joe Montana as his stats. I didn't come here for a Tebow discussion either, but I will point out when somebody is moving the goalposts.

Not when the QB had special packages that he came into the game for and was a contributing member of the team, Tebow was on the field, when a player is on the field in a NFL game he is judged on that game.

 

[Avenger]

Not when the QB had special packages that he came into the game for and was a contributing member of the team, Tebow was on the field, when a player is on the field in a NFL game he is judged on that game.

Lets count the London game as a win for Mallet then, 45-7, what a blowout, couldn't have done it without Ryan Mallet, game ball for him!

 

[Brady6]

Lets count the London game as a win for Mallet then, 45-7, what a blowout, couldn't have done it without Ryan Mallet, game ball for him!

What about the games he played as a rookie, or the games when he was inserted for the wildcat? Those do not count, those are the same as Mallett taking garbage time stats in your opinion? Give me a break, you trying to manipulate the information to suit your argument.

 

[Brady6]

@Avenger you can dislike or disagree all you want it does not change the fact that you are advocating that a player who is out of the NFL at age 26, and after just 3 seasons had success in the NFL.

 

[Avenger]

What about the games he played as a rookie, or the games when he was inserted for the wildcat? Those do not count, those are the same as Mallett taking garbage time stats in your opinion? Give me a break, you trying to manipulate the information to suit your argument.

yep, 3 games started the end of his rookie year, 1 win 2 losses that were both within 1 score. too small of a sample to make a judgement, once he became the full time starter he was 7-4.

 

[Avenger]

@Avenger you can dislike or disagree all you want it does not change the fact that you are advocating that a player who is out of the NFL at age 26, and after just 3 seasons had success in the NFL.

he had limited success, what I am disagreeing with is that he had less success than the Ryan Leaf's of the world.

 

[Avenger]

@Brady6 would you not consider throwing for over 300 yards and winning a playoff game as a QB to be an accomplishment and for a team that was dead last in the division to win a playoff game the following year to be a successful season?

 

[Brady6]

@Brady6 would you not consider throwing for over 300 yards and winning a playoff game as a QB to be an accomplishment and for a team that was dead last in the division to win a playoff game the following year to be a successful season?

One good game does not make a player a successful NFL player. His overall body of work in the NFL was a failure, otherwise he would still be in the NFL. He is 26 years old, he is in good health, what other reason is there that he is out of the NFL other than the fact he failed to perform.

 

[Brady6]

he had limited success, what I am disagreeing with is that he had less success than the Ryan Leaf's of the world.

Ryan Leaf sucked, he had zero success, I never said he did. Ryan Leaf did not have the prolific college career that Tebow did which is why he is not as comparable to Michael Sam. Tebow was potentially the greatest college player ever and he went on to fail overall in the NFL and was out of the league after just three seasons. Did he decent or even good in a handful of games sure but overall his career in the NFL was a failure.

 

[Brady6]

yep, 3 games started the end of his rookie year, 1 win 2 losses that were both within 1 score. too small of a sample to make a judgement, once he became the full time starter he was 7-4.

Tebow won 7 of his first 8 starts and lost 4 of his final 5, so the if the sample size as a rookie was too small to judge I would say the first 8 games was to small and then once the NFL got a book on him he was not effective.

 

[Brady6]

Honestly I'm done going back and forth with you and CC. If you want to believe Tebow had a successful NFL career that is your right. I disagree however and most others would as well.

Anyway no hard feelings, have a great night!

 

[Avenger]

Tebow won 7 of his first 8 starts and lost 4 of his final 5, so the if the sample size as a rookie was too small to judge I would say the first 8 games was to small and then once the NFL got a book on him he was not effective.

at towards the end of that stretch he passed for 316 yards and ran for 50 and passed for 2 TDs and ran for another in the playoffs against the #1 defense rebounding from that, he lost the next week to NE, but I don't hold a loss against NE to him because we went to the SB that year. The next year he never had a chance in NY.

 

[Brady6]

at towards the end of that stretch he passed for 316 yards and ran for 50 and passed for 2 TDs and ran for another in the playoffs against the #1 defense rebounding from that, he lost the next week to NE, but I don't hold a loss against NE to him because we went to the SB that year. The next year he never had a chance in NY.

He was out of the NFL at age 25. That equates to a failing NFL career in my opinion.