Building your draft board position by position - week 4: CB

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm three days late and more than a dollar short, but I'll get the CB thread started and see if anyone has anything left to say about CBs in this draft. For historical reference, here are the first three week's discussions:
Week One OC/OG: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=51105
Week Two DL: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=51395
Week Three OT: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=51983

Ochmed had a nice summary of CB characteristics as perceived by draftniks watching the Pats' choices in one of Seneschal's threads, I'll use that as the starting point for this thread. As always, have fun!

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=368904&postcount=7

In the Pats system I believe BB looks for the following in a CB.

A.) Quickness/Speed. The CB must have decent speed, not track fast but still decent, and most importantly super quickness and change of direction. Quick Twitch muscle fibers.
B.) Ball Skills. Ability to know find the ball and make a paly on the ball.
C.) Taclking/Jamming. If you can't tackle then BB won't need you for long. The ability to Jam, especially bigger receivers at the line is important also.
D.) Intanglibles (Character, intelligence, discipline and a total committment to football.)
E.) Fundamentals. CBs must possess decent technical ability and most importantly the ability to take to coaching as BB refines and improves an athletes techinque. (ie: Smooth back pedal, decent turn and run ability. form tackling, etc.)
F.) Experience. Preferably in the best college conferences and preferably a multi year starter. Also includes ability to stay on the field as opposed to the training room.

Things that are not as important to BB as some would think.

- Decent Size. BB does not care if a CB is not six foot. However he seems to like them meatier, around 185 plus pounds. Probably because they hold up better physically as tacklers.
- Loose Hips. While a decent indicator of change of direction ability, loose hips are not a prerequisite for quick twitch athletes.

Based on the above, I would picture BB draft board on CB's as follows: (Note on scoring. each of the 6 criteria above are judged on a 1 to 5 scale with 5 being the best.)

Hall (A=4, B=3,C=5,D=4,E=4,F=5) Total Score = 25.
Revis (A=3,B=5,C=4,D=4,E=4,F=4) Total Score = 24.
Ross (A=3,B=3,C=4,D=4,E=4,F=3) Total Score = 21.
Wilson (A=5,B=3,C=4,D=3,E=3,F=3) Total Score 21.
Wade (A=4,B=3,C=3,D=4,E=4,F=3) Total Score 21.
Irons (A=3,B=3,C=3,D=4,E=4,F=3) Total Score 20.
McCauley (A=5,B=3,C=3,D=1,E=4,F=4) Total Score = 20.
Houston (A=4,B=3,C=2,D=3,E=4,F=4) Total Score = 20.
Bennett (A-3,B=3,C=2,D=4,E=4,F=4) Total Score = 20.

Based on these results, this draft has two guys that would fit very well in the pats system and then 7 guys that are all bunched together each with a wart or two in their game.

 

[Fencer]

Revis is the guy I want, even at a small trade up, and Wilson is my guy for a value pick.

McCauley's "1" on intangibles may be harsh, given his lack of a police record, but I agree he's a no-go unless Pat Hill says something very surprising to BB about him.

 

[SamBamsFan]

Early draft board:
Darrelle Revis
Josh Wilson
AJ Davis
Michael Coe
DeAndre Jackson
John Talley
Usama Young

Based on value, these are CB's I am still thinking of:
Daymeion Hughes
CJ Gaddis (he's kind of cb/s tweener)
David Irons
Jonathan Wade
Kenny Scott

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Early draft board:
Darrelle Revis
Josh Wilson
AJ Davis
Michael Coe
DeAndre Jackson
John Talley
Usama Young

Based on value, these are CB's I am still thinking of:
Daymeion Hughes
CJ Gaddis (he's kind of cb/s tweener)
David Irons
Jonathan Wade
Kenny Scott

Thanks for the Usama Young tip, I just read up on him. I don't like his short shuttle, but maybe Woicik & Nash can improve on how that translates to the field. At worst, he could be another Wilson if Geno goes down again.

 

[mgteich]

Who do guys expect to be available in the late 3rd within reach of our pick.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Who do guys expect to be available in the late 3rd within reach of our pick.

I'd hope for Josh Wilson but Coe should be there. I don' think that Josh's Intellegence and attitude can be any worst than a 4 or 5 rating; He is an Academic All American, has graduated and a team leader. If he is there in the third, its becasue he is 5'9.5" tall. No other reason.

There is another CB that no one mentions. The criminal Wright has as much talent as anybody, but maybe the Bengals beckon.

 

[everlong]

Revis is the only CB who is a first rounder that I like.

In the third round Irons, Coe and Bennett are all interesting. I think Irons is an underrated prospect who played well against good competition. Bennett is raw and Coe played at a small school but the thing I like about them is they are both 6 ft and still finished near the top of the 3-cone and had very good short shuttle numbers and their vertical jumps, especially Bennett, were good.

Having two short corners I felt like teams threw a lot of jump balls against us last year. Having a larger corner with good speed and lift would protect us more against that. Plus they could play nickel and match up against a lot of the TEs that gave us trouble. We have a lot of teams with bigger receivers like Burress, V Jackson, TO, Cotchery on the schedule and lot of TEs that play a large part in the passing game such as Whitten, Clark, Shockey, Gates, etc.

Even if they didn't fit as a full time CB they could fit as a nickle, FS or situational corner long term and as a 3rd rounder that's good value.

 

[dryheat44]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=368673&postcount=2

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Time for some outside the "box" discussion: from the Auburn Pro-Day results on NFL.com comes...

Will Herring LB: Herring (6-2½, 229) ran his 40s in 4.57 and 4.58 seconds, the short shuttle in 3.99 and the three-cone drill in 6.56. He also had a 35-inch vertical jump, a 10-foot-5 broad jump and 18 bench presses.

Now those are CB numbers at 229. He's a little slow at 4.6 in the forty, but he probably had a nice 10 yd split if he broke 4 sec. in the ss. If Herring has any skill in coverage, it would seem he could lose 10 lbs or so and get a little faster for a possible CB conversion, at minimum he's a consideration for SS.

Question: Does anyone have any take on his coverage skills? Heatster? Ochmed? patchick? Seneschal? SamBam? Pony? All & sundry?

Nut, anything in your draft guides?

With those numbers I'd be hitting the tape, if I had any, and take a good look at how he plays.

 

[everlong]

http://auburntigers.motime.com/

That's a great find I had forgotten about him but I remember his name getting called when watching their games. I do not recall any specific plays where he was good or bad in coverage. I do have a friend who's a huge Auburn fan and I'll check with him to see if he knows more about him. There was a thread about BB using Tebucky at LB in certain situations. I wonder if a guy like this could come in and be a cross between Don Davis and Tebucky Jones and a nickel back or possibly FS or SS. This is what I was talking about in regards to a larger CB but even more extreme. In that situation he wouldn't have to lose any weight and could almost play as a Cato June type in passing situations and yet still have enough bulk in a 3rd and 4 to take on some blocks. If he could cover a Dallas Clark or Gates it would be worth the roster slot for that alone.

 

[borisman]

Having two short corners I felt like teams threw a lot of jump balls against us last year. Having a larger corner with good speed and lift would protect us more against that. Plus they could play nickel and match up against a lot of the TEs that gave us trouble. We have a lot of teams with bigger receivers like Burress, V Jackson, TO, Cotchery on the schedule and lot of TEs that play a large part in the passing game such as Whitten, Clark, Shockey, Gates, etc. (/QUOTE]

Asking a rookie to come in and match up against the above mentioned Pro-Bowlers week after week is expecting a miracle find. It's tough enough to find a veteran to do the job.

 

[everlong]

Asking a rookie to come in and match up against the above mentioned Pro-Bowlers week after week is expecting a miracle find. It's tough enough to find a veteran to do the job.

It would obviously be a role they would have to grow into but there's some 3rd down situations where they could come in and gain experience right away.

 

[borisman]

It would obviously be a role they would have to grow into but there's some 3rd down situations where they could come in and gain experience right away.

If they come in to gain experience on 3rd down, I prefer they do it against the team's 4th or 5th option, not the Gates' or Shockeys' of the world.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Right, now that I've woken up enough to wander over and start reading draftnik scouting reports I see he was a high school QB converted to S who started 11 of 13 games as a freshman...2006 was his first year at LB...graduated early with a 3.52 GPA...seems like a great character person...consistent team leader in tackles, not a lot of notes about his coverage skills...here's a note saying coachable and instinctual http://condraft.com/database/southeastern/auburn/will-herring/index.html...his 10 split is 1.55 which puts him middle of the pack for FS and a little below average for CB - Hughes, Coe, and Irons are all right there with him...DraftDaddy considers him a Big School Surprise...OOOOO! http://www.draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

DD.Comment: Former Oregon State safety Sabby Piscitelli was the only prospect to run a sub 4.0 in the short shuttle (20 yard shuttle) at the most recent N.F.L. Combine, but the Auburn Tigers had two players do that at their Pro Day -- Running back Tre Smith and linebacker Will Herring.

Herring, in our opinion, was a big time Senior Bowl and Combine snub. He is constantly labeled as an "overachiever" by the media, but how many linebackers in America could provide blanket coverage on a top notch wide receiver like Sidney Rice of South Carolina in the redzone? Don't believe it, go back and watch the tape of that game in week 5. We already knew Herring was an "achiever" and team leader on the field. Now we know he's a very good workout player, too. Obviously, N.F.L. teams will need to figure out were to play him -- safety or linebacker?

 

[patchick]

Right, now that I've woken up enough to wander over and start reading draftnik scouting reports I see he was a high school QB converted to S who started 11 of 13 games as a freshman...2006 was his first year at LB...graduated early with a 3.52 GPA...seems like a great character person...consistent team leader in tackles, not a lot of notes about his coverage skills...here's a note saying coachable and instinctual http://condraft.com/database/southeastern/auburn/will-herring/index.html...his 10 split is 1.55 which puts him middle of the pack for FS and a little below average for CB - Hughes, Coe, and Irons are all right there with him...DraftDaddy considers him a Big School Surprise...OOOOO! http://www.draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

Heavens, Herring holds the school record for consecutive games played and was a Wuerffel award finalist, too!

So...great big safety, durable and versatile, not much straight-line speed but outstanding burst and quickness. Apparently an effective playmaker in coverage with good hands, solid experience in run support and the pass rush. Academic star, community leader, former QB, rescues puppies from burning buildings, etc.

And he'll probably be, what, the 15th-20th safety chosen this year? Boy is that position deep.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Heavens, Herring holds the school record for consecutive games played and was a Wuerffel award finalist, too!

So...great big safety, durable and versatile, not much straight-line speed but outstanding burst and quickness. Apparently an effective playmaker in coverage with good hands, solid experience in run support and the pass rush. Academic star, community leader, former QB, rescues puppies from burning buildings, etc.

And he'll probably be, what, the 15th-20th safety chosen this year? Boy is that position deep.

Ain't it just! Could you just imagine one or two of these big Safeties with CB quicks working with Chad Scott on big CB tricks of the trade and Rodney on demeanor and body language?

 

[BelichickFan]

I like Aaron Ross a lot. I'm not into the "we have to get a bigger CB" thing because it's clear that Belichick prefers quickness to size but Ross is bigger and still had excellent quickness and closing speed.

Assuming Hall and Revis are gone, he's my #1 CB and I'd be very happy with him at #24.

 

[Seneschal2]

Will Herring...

Heavens, Herring holds the school record for consecutive games played and was a Wuerffel award finalist, too!

So...great big safety, durable and versatile, not much straight-line speed but outstanding burst and quickness. Apparently an effective playmaker in coverage with good hands, solid experience in run support and the pass rush. Academic star, community leader, former QB, rescues puppies from burning buildings, etc.

And he'll probably be, what, the 15th-20th safety chosen this year? Boy is that position deep.

Box - and everyone. One of the separate draft prospect categories I have is 'The Good Guys'. It's different than the normal rankings board based on talent and abilities. It's reserved for prospects who have the all important intangibles ( good character, smarts, strong work ethic, potential leaders, etc.). Herring made that list after reading several articles on him, and viewing the Cotton Bowl.

The thought with Herring was, he was too undersized to play OLB for the Pats, too slow and big to play FS -- but he made the Good Guy list for obvious reasons. But now that I see his workout numbers -- WOW! I wonder if we'd take a flyer on him as a SS candidate, rather than FS. He has in-the-box experience as a LB for one season; and we know he moves well in the secondary from his FS days. He obviously has the smarts, versatility, and work ethic to develop. And now we know he has the athleticism that I wasn't aware of. We have enough day two picks to gamble on anybody; but Herring has better intangibles than most.

Great find in an unexpected thread.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Will Herring...

BBF,

Between Piscatelli and Herring you have two 6'2.5" 225-ish lb. players who can match up with anybody for quickness and acceleration. One runs a 4.5/40 with a 1.5/10 split, the other a 4.6/40 with a 1.55/10. They may not have the experience/instinct to play consistently on an island as CBs, but I'd love to try them with a bit of training. Having one of these guys with potential versatility to be the "big" CB on an "as needed" basis, play either S position, passing down LB, and on Special Teams would really make for an interesting secondary.

Ross is a project in his own right. His 40 is better than these two and he's slightly quicker than Piscatelli in the 3-cone, but he doesn't have the potential versatility of one of these athletic Safeties. Unlike some, I have no CB size phobia, but I can see the advantage of having a larger defender who can match-up with quickness. Just think if BB had two of them, he could field a 4-3 Cover-2 with Adelius at MLB when he really wanted to mess with an offense expecting the 3-4. :singing:

 

[captain stone]

Add me to the Will Herring bandwagon, as a SS.

It is imperative that our FS and SS of the future be chosen this year. The draft is too deep at Safety not to take advantage, with multiple selections.