College Football Star Michael Sam Says He Is Gay; May Become First Publicly G...

[RI Patriots fan]

We'll agree to disagree here then. They find that there is a third copy causing DS, but they still don't know where the 3rd copy comes from or what forms it.

That wasn't your point....you said they didn't find the gene. They did, in fact, find the gene.

Now, you are changing your point to.... "they don't know where the 3rd copy comes from".... which is a different point entirely and not germane to the original point you were trying to make.

 

[Ring 6]

You have scientific proof that people are born gay??? I'd love to see that please.

Cool, show me your proof they aren't.

 

[Ring 6]

Some of the greatest "thinkers" have been people who believe in God whether it be Sir Issac Newton, Thomas Aquinas, Nicolaus Copernicus, Gregor Mendel, Georges Lemaître, Albertus Magnus, Roger Bacon, Pierre Gassendi, Roger Joseph Boscovich, Marin Mersenne, Bernard Bolzano, Francesco Maria Grimaldi, Nicole Oresme, Jean Buridan, Robert Grosseteste, Christopher Clavius, Nicolas Steno, Athanasius Kircher, Giovanni Battista Riccioli, William of Ockham, Galileo Galilei,[1] René Descartes,[2] Nicolas Copernicus, Louis Pasteur,[3] Blaise Pascal, André-Marie Ampère, Gregor Mendel, Charles-Augustin de Coulomb, Pierre de Fermat, Antoine Laurent Lavoisier, Marin Mersenne, Alessandro Volta,[4] Augustin-Louis Cauchy, Pierre Duhem, Jean-Baptiste Dumas, Roger Boscovich,[5] Pierre Gassendi, and Georgius Agricola.


List of Roman Catholic cleric?scientists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of Catholic scientists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'm not sure that the brilliant minds of the hundreds and hundreds of people on these lists would agree that their minds have been..."enslaved"

In fact, I'm going to guess that these minds are significantly more intelligent than your mind.

What creates a suicide bomber is not "religion" but a desire for revenge and a desire for power and control.

Political systems have killed far more people than religion.


Mass killings under Communist regimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Does that mean we should give up on government entirely?

I didn't say peoples minds are enslaved by believing in God, I said their minds are enslaved by religion.
You cannot really dispute the long line of atrocities done in the name of religion.

I'm not sure why you are citing government here other than to move the goalposts. Obviously there are also many examples of governments oppressing people as well. Is your argument someone else is worse, so yay religion.

 

[Ring 6]

Not according to the Genome project.....there is no evidence of a homosexual gene.




"Is homosexuality a genetic trait?


Christy Haakonsen, B.S.: According to current scientific knowledge, there isn't a "gene" for homosexuality."


David Bodine, M.D., Ph.D.: I investigate the genetics of pluripotent hematopoietic stem cells (PHSCs) to improve the effectiveness of bone marrow transplantation and to find better ways to use these unique cells for gene replacement therapy. There was a paper that suggested that about 15 years ago, but that paper has been shown to be completely wrong. There are people who want to believe that there is a genetic component, but that has not been proven."



National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI) - Homepage

The fact that research has not yet found it does not mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm saying that you can't take any single scripture verse and take it at face value as a "one off" . It needs to be seen in the light of all Catholic teaching (along with doing a proper exegesis). So that one verse along with other scripture verses, along with the oral tradition of the church and what it has consistently taught (as a whole as taught by the Magisterium) that homosexual acts are always immoral.

And what about the majority of the world that does not believe what the Catholic church says?

 

[Ring 6]

You have scientific proof that people are born gay??? I'd love to see that please.

Where is your scientific proof that the Catholic religion is correct? 5 out 6 people in the world are not Catholic.
It is possible the number of homosexuals in the world is greater than the number of Catholics. If you include a least one family member who is supportive of each gay person, it isn't even close so there are more proGay than Catholics.
Funny that you feel your religion is the only true one and God allowed there to be more homos or home-friendly people than Catholics. Why would he do that?

 

[PP2]

The Thirty Years War caused far fewer than 11 million deaths. That is on the absurd high range of estimates. I have seen more reliable estimates around 3 million. BTW, if you think that politics had nothing to do with the Thirty Years war, then you are being very naive.

Regardless, either estimate pales in comparison to the First or Second World War (20 million and 66 million), Stalin (20 Million), Genghis Khan (40 million), the slave trade (35 million), and the Roman Empire (15 million).

Oh now you're including the slave trade? Roman Empire? Those are political?

The slave trade most definitely was not political. It was a way of life for some people.

The 30 year war did start because of religious difference, namely protestants vs. catholics.

 

[PP2]

I used Wiki for your sake...not mine. I am well versed in Islam as well as Christianity. By your response about Muhammad, it was obvious you didn't know what you were talking about so I used the least scholarly source I could find to meet your ability to comprehend the subject matter.

So now again I will ask you, show me a direct cause and effect relationship between this particular doctrine and war.

I'm happy that you think you know more than me, and happy to debate with you further and learn a thing or two from it. Just spare me the condescending tone, it doesn't work on me.

Have you no comprehension of the scale of the crusades? I'm not just talking about the middle age Christian crusades which are the best known, but also the earliest, such as the new Muslim caliph who launched Islam's 1,500 "holy war" against any non-islamic domains stretching over the globe. Since you know so much, you should know who this caliph was.

What cause and effect relationship are you demanding for cause? There was nothing further needed than a difference in religious belief.

 

[PP2]

That wasn't your point....you said they didn't find the gene. They did, in fact, find the gene.

Now, you are changing your point to.... "they don't know where the 3rd copy comes from".... which is a different point entirely and not germane to the original point you were trying to make.

Fair enough.. they don't know the makeup of the DNA that causes this third copy.

Better?

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Cool, show me your proof they aren't.

I'm not the one making a claim....you're the one making the claim that people with same sex inclinations are born that way. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

The fact remains that there is no scientific proof for your position and therefore you cannot say that people with same sex inclinations are born that way.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Where is your scientific proof that the Catholic religion is correct? 5 out 6 people in the world are not Catholic.
It is possible the number of homosexuals in the world is greater than the number of Catholics. If you include a least one family member who is supportive of each gay person, it isn't even close so there are more proGay than Catholics.
Funny that you feel your religion is the only true one and God allowed there to be more homos or home-friendly people than Catholics. Why would he do that?

I don't need "scientific" evidence that the Catholic religion is correct because the Catholic church isn't making scientific claims. The RCC is making claims about the supernatural realm which is, obviously, outside of the natural realm. Since science deals exclusively in the natural realm, it makes no sense to use science to "prove" Catholicism.


So people with exclusive same sex inclinations account for over 16% of the world's population?....lol. Um....that's a big no...not even close.

According to a Gallup poll:

"A special Gallup report finds that 3.4% of U.S. adults identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)"


Gallup Special Report: The U.S. Adult LGBT Population | Williams Institute


I think the numbers are actually much lower (probably under 1%) but at the very least are well below your figure of 16+%.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

And what about the majority of the world that does not believe what the Catholic church says?

What about them?

Are you saying that the majority is always correct because they're the majority?

That's a logical fallacy. It's called Argumetum populum or the "Bandwagon" fallacy.



"Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true.

Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true.
Statement p is true."



Argumentum Ad Populum

 

[PP2]

Before you go and embarrass yourself even further, Muslims consider Jesus a great prophet. So no, there is not "only Muhammad and no other". Actually there were many prophets in Islam.


Prophets in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, I forgot to add, to clarify what I mean:

While you are correct in that there were other prophets before Muhammad, there are no prophets after him, therefore he is considered the last and so there is "no other prophet" but Muhammad, in that he is the final authority, so to speak.

 

[PP2]

I don't need "scientific" evidence that the Catholic religion is correct because the Catholic church isn't making scientific claims. The RCC is making claims about the supernatural realm which is, obviously, outside of the natural realm. Since science deals exclusively in the natural realm, it makes no sense to use science to "prove" Catholicism.


So people with exclusive same sex inclinations account for over 16% of the world's population?....lol. Um....that's a big no...not even close.

According to a Gallup poll:

"A special Gallup report finds that 3.4% of U.S. adults identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)"


Gallup Special Report: The U.S. Adult LGBT Population | Williams Institute


I think the numbers are actually much lower (probably under 1%) but at the very least are well below your figure of 16+%.

The catholic church, no matter how mighty and powerful is still a human entity, it's a human invention.

Also Andy is including supporters of gay people, if you didn't notice that.

For example, President Obama made it quite clear what his position was on gay/lesbian issues.

He won the last election, winning a popular vote of 65 million.

There are 75 million Catholics in the US, at last count.

So it's not as lopsided as you argue it to be, and one number is declining and the other is just growing.

You can guess which is which.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I didn't say peoples minds are enslaved by believing in God, I said their minds are enslaved by religion.
You cannot really dispute the long line of atrocities done in the name of religion.

I'm not sure why you are citing government here other than to move the goalposts. Obviously there are also many examples of governments oppressing people as well. Is your argument someone else is worse, so yay religion.

If you didn't happen to notice, the lists I linked were all Roman Catholics (except for Newton). Roman Catholicism is a religion. Obviously, these Roman Catholic scientists weren't "enslaved" by their religion.

I have never claimed that people haven't done things in the name of religion that were immoral. But again, it wasnt because of religion. It was because religion was a good tool just like politics or ethnic rivalries have been good tools to incite atrocities.

The problem though is not religion, or politics or ethnicity but rather human nature. Men will always find tools (even if they have to misuse them) to do evil.

I'm curious....when you see a drunk driving accident and someone is killed, do you blame the driver or the car and beer?

Assuming the driver was a rational adult, Im sure you blame the driver. So are the car and beer "evil" because the driver used them to drive drunk?
Of course not, because the driver misused the car and the beer. The car was designed to be used to travel safely between point A and point B and the Beer was designed to used as a refreshment. They were not designed to be used together to kill people.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not the one making a claim....you're the one making the claim that people with same sex inclinations are born that way. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

You are talking about a burden of proof from a standpoint of you are right because God says so?

The fact remains that there is no scientific proof for your position and therefore you cannot say that people with same sex inclinations are born that way.

And there is no scientific proof to say they are not.
It just comes down to common sense. People are attracted to who they are attracted to. It is only common sense that it is part of their makeup, and not some kind of whim.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Also, I forgot to add, to clarify what I mean:

While you are correct in that there were other prophets before Muhammad, there are no prophets after him, therefore he is considered the last and so there is "no other prophet" but Muhammad, in that he is the final authority, so to speak.

You said...and I quote...."there is only Muhammad and no other."

Clearly, being "the last" and being "the only" are two completely different things. So your "clarification" is not a clarification at all but rather a "correction". The correction being that your original statement was wrong and now you have changed it.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't need "scientific" evidence that the Catholic religion is correct because the Catholic church isn't making scientific claims. The RCC is making claims about the supernatural realm which is, obviously, outside of the natural realm. Since science deals exclusively in the natural realm, it makes no sense to use science to "prove" Catholicism.

So neither of has the kind of proof you set as the standard.

So people with exclusive same sex inclinations account for over 16% of the world's population?....lol. Um....that's a big no...not even close.

I included gay people, which is typically estimated as 10% of the population, and just one single straight person that supports them. Thats 20%.

According to a Gallup poll:

"A special Gallup report finds that 3.4% of U.S. adults identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)"


Gallup Special Report: The U.S. Adult LGBT Population | Williams Institute


I think the numbers are actually much lower (probably under 1%) but at the very least are well below your figure of 16+%.

A Gallup poll, lol.

Here is an actual study that puts it at 20%
What Percent of the Population is Gay? More Than You Think | Smart News | Smithsonian

Interesting that you cite the lowest possible number then with absolutely no reasoning say you think its less than 1%.

 

[Ring 6]

What about them?

Are you saying that the majority is always correct because they're the majority?

That's a logical fallacy. It's called Argumetum populum or the "Bandwagon" fallacy.



"Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true.

Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true.
Statement p is true."



Argumentum Ad Populum

You are saying it is wrong because the Catholic church says its wrong, and I am saying that is 1/6th of the population.
As I have mentioned before, there are other religions that disagree with the Catholic religion. Why would anyone take 1/6th of the peoples belief as fact?

The point is that you feel your religion determines right and wrong, and while arrogant, that simply is not correct.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

You are talking about a burden of proof from a standpoint of you are right because God says so?




And there is no scientific proof to say they are not.
It just comes down to common sense. People are attracted to who they are attracted to. It is only common sense that it is part of their makeup, and not some kind of whim.

"Common sense" in this case is merely your opinion. An opinion not backed by science. So when someone says that people with same sex inclinations are not born that way they, in fact, cannot have less scientific evidence than you have for your opinion because you have provided zero scientific evidence to support your claim.

The funny thing though is that unlike you I am open to any and all conclusions.

If science proves that homosexuals do not choose their inclinations and are born that way, fine. If science proves that homosexuals do not choose their inclinations but rather that it is a psychosis, fine. If science proves that homosexuality is chosen, fine.

Are you open to what science says or are you so indoctrinated in the Progressive faith that you will refuse to accept what science utilimately proves?