Lots of believers on this team...

[The Brandon Five]

Heck, the bible is filled with Jewish soldiers raping women from other tribes too!

Umm, you are deflecting. Back up the claim that all or most illegitimate births were due to rape in warfare.

This is endemic in the bible. You can try to narrow it down as much as you want, but the common thread is that INNOCENT children and women are constantly used as material to be punished for crimes done TO them by men in the bible. Hey, it's ok, they're only women and children!

Deutoronomy is FILLED with this evil:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 KJV - When thou goest forth to war against - Bible Gateway

I guess that's rape in the sense that all arranged marriages were:

And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man happens to meet a virgin who - Bible Gateway

While I personally don't get the reasoning behind this one, it states that a man who rapes a virgin must pay her father 50 shekels and marry her and may not divorce her. While I am also appalled at the idea of a woman having to marry her rapist, I don't see that as rape by a Jewish soldier sanctioned by God.

So is Judges:

Judges 21 - Wives for the Benjamites - The men of - Bible Gateway

Again, while I don't agree with it this is more forced marriage, which would not lead to illegitimate children.

Here's a beauty from 2 Samuel:

2 Samuel 12:11-14 - ?This is what the LORD says: ?Out - Bible Gateway

I'd have to read up on this, but I believe that is prophecy, not God's judgment. I could be wrong, but again I am not seeing the case for widespread illegitimacy as a result of warfare.

It is interesting to note that under the Romans illegitimacy was treated very differently. The Christians actually took away the right of inheritance for children born out of wedlock (because you know, that's what Jesus would do ).

.. this is just a small sampling - - it goes on and on.

There is a lot of stuff in the OT that I don't get, but I don't see how any of that applies to us. We aren't being called to conquer Canaan now.

Religion
is MAN MADE.

I believe in a Creator. A Creator that I am far too small to know and understand. I am in awe of any power that could have created such a vast universe. I don't go for the version drummed up religion manufacturers.

Fair enough. How can we know anything about the Creator?

For me it comes down to the question of who Jesus was.

 

[shmessy]

Umm, you are deflecting. Back up the claim that all or most illegitimate births were due to rape in warfare.

I never wrote ALL illegitmate births were due to rape in warfare. I wrote MOST were. OK, you can debate that. There certainly weren't any census statistics on it.

However, what is certain is that the only one deflecting is you.

The central point you continue to avoid is that the innocent CHILD (and 10 generations thereafter) is being punished with no recourse for entering the Church while the father who did the deed can be saved.

You can lawyer up all you want about HOW the adultery/rape took place, but you are doing the definition of "deflecting". The far more thoughtful Christian Cat wrote that he does not have an answer for this at the moment. I can respect that. It's OK to say "I don't know". He didn't deflect. He was honestly thinking about it.

 

[shmessy]

Fair enough. How can we know anything about the Creator?

First step is not to make up stories about "HIM" and "HIS" wants and needs.

Mankind is still in the top of the FIRST INNING of understanding the HUMAN BRAIN. It is laughable to make up myths and fantasies about the creator of the universe.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I never wrote ALL illegitmate births were due to rape in warfare. I wrote MOST were. OK, you can debate that. There certainly weren't any census statistics on it.

However, what is certain is that the only one deflecting is you.

How am I deflecting? I directly addressed what you said?

The central point you continue to avoid is that the innocent CHILD (and 10 generations thereafter) is being punished with no recourse for entering the Church while the father who did the deed can be saved.

You need to read the earlier part of Deuteronomy 22, where the rapist is sentenced to death.

You can lawyer up all you want about HOW the adultery/rape took place, but you are doing the definition of "deflecting". The far more thoughtful Christian Cat wrote that he does not have an answer for this at the moment. I can respect that. It's OK to say "I don't know". He didn't deflect. He was honestly thinking about it.

I said:

I'd have to read up on this, but I believe that is prophecy, not God's judgment. I could be wrong, but again I am not seeing the case for widespread illegitimacy as a result of warfare.

And:

There is a lot of stuff in the OT that I don't get, but I don't see how any of that applies to us. We aren't being called to conquer Canaan now.

Not sure why you have a problem with me.

 

[SalemPats]

Didn't Karl Marx once say religion is opium for the poor. It seems that religion is for the weak-minded, poor and unhappy. A lot of these athletes ancestors were forced into conversion because they were poor and slaves to the whites. too me it's a bit sad

 

[shmessy]

Didn't Karl Marx once say religion is opium for the poor. It seems that religion is for the weak-minded, poor and unhappy. A lot of these athletes ancestors were forced into conversion because they were poor and slaves to the whites. too me it's a bit sad

But, but , but it's the Word of God! Creator of the Entire Universe!

Written down by men who had yet to even understand they were standing on a round planet.

It's nice to have such certitude and self confidence.

 

[everlong]

Faith: not wanting to know what is true.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

I wouldn't go quite as far but would say this is true about blind faith. None of us really know one way or the other what is really true so keeping an open mind is best.

 

[oldrover]

yeah, I would definitely disagree with Nietzsche.

Faith is the final step you take toward a belief that is justifiable but not provable.

You can put concepts like global warming, evolution, the big bang theory, God, NO God, reincarnation and Christ being the Son of God into this category. There are some signs to suggest that each may be true. But none can be proven. Thus, we look at each, and take our leap of faith.

 

[SalemPats]

yeah, I would definitely disagree with Nietzsche.

Faith is the final step you take toward a belief that is justifiable but not provable.

You can put concepts like global warming, evolution, the big bang theory, God, NO God, reincarnation and Christ being the Son of God into this category. There are some signs to suggest that each may be true. But none can be proven. Thus, we look at each, and take our leap of faith.

global warming and evolution are not theories

 

[oldrover]

Yes, they are. Neither can be proven.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Didn't Karl Marx once say religion is opium for the poor. It seems that religion is for the weak-minded, poor and unhappy. A lot of these athletes ancestors were forced into conversion because they were poor and slaves to the whites. too me it's a bit sad

No, he didn't. If you want to avoid appearing weak-minded, maybe you should research what he actually said:

Religion is the opiate of the masses.

We know how well following that guy worked out, don't we?

 

[The Brandon Five]

But, but , but it's the Word of God! Creator of the Entire Universe!

Written down by men who had yet to even understand they were standing on a round planet.

It's nice to have such certitude and self confidence.

Is this unintentional comedy?

 

[The Brandon Five]

global warming and evolution are not theories

You should probably quit while you're behind.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.

Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive and explanatory force.

 

[SalemPats]

You should probably quit while you're behind.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's impossible to someone who doesn't accept science

 

[The Brandon Five]

It's impossible to someone who doesn't accept science

The first step is admitting you have a problem. Well done!

 

[SalemPats]

The first step is admitting you have a problem. Well done!

thanks, lets just agree to disagree. It's impossible to argue on this, we have two completely differing views.

 

[The Brandon Five]

thanks, lets just agree to disagree. It's impossible to argue on this, we have two completely differing views.

I think you should stick to history. Science ain't your bag.

 

[SalemPats]

I think you should stick to history. Science ain't your bag.

I'll stick to reality, you can stick to fantasy :rocker:

 

[Christiancat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgWOcYpHm0o
Jeremy Camp Walk by Faith


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvpLgTLdPYM
Jeremy was at last Year's Tim Tebow celebrity gala and performed.

Read about Jeremy Camp from wiki below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Camp

 

[The Brandon Five]

I'll stick to reality, you can stick to fantasy :rocker:

Sorry, the fantasy is that reason is infallible and without limits.

Gödel's incompleteness theorems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia