NFLPA wants inquiry on Welker deal?

[zippo59]

To be honest I wouldn't be completely heartbroken if the trade was undone and we got our picks back.

 

[NE39]

Here is Pioli's statement:

There was never an offer sheet executed, or talked about with the Miami Dolphins. When free agency started, as time went on, we were talking to the agent, getting an idea of where we thought the market was going to be, understanding that there were a couple of different options. Really, the only conversations that took place between me and [Dolphins GM] Randy Mueller were trade discussions. I gave Randy a call and asked him if they would be willing to consider trading the player. From that point on, there was never an offer sheet executed, there was never an offer sheet talked about. Somehow, somewhere, there is this great myth out there that we created an offer sheet that was worth $38 million. I don’t know where this stuff starts, but the conversation never really went there. I called Randy and the trade was made within a matter of hours.

I'm not sure what the NFLPA will say about offer sheets, considering this was a trade of a player's rights. I don't think the Patriots care whether he was a RFA or not.

 

[solman]

Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

But according to Pioli, there was never an offer sheet or a plan for one. It was a straight trade of a player.

If you're the NFL do you seriously walk into the hearing and claim:

"We were never considering giving Welker an offer sheet"?

Its a bad strategy for three reasons:

1. The terms of the trade make it clear that giving Welker an offer sheet was in the Patriots best interests, as determined by the Patriots.

2. There were extensive media reports to the contrary.

3. Welker's agent is going to say that he discussed the offer sheet with the Patriots.

 

[NE39]

Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

1. The terms of the trade make it clear that giving Welker an offer sheet was in the Patriots best interests, as determined by the Patriots.

How so? The Pats made it clear they looked at this transaction as a straight trade (see Pioli's comments above). They wanted the player, they traded for him. End of story.

2. There were extensive media reports to the contrary.

Which means nothing in court. I guess you could call in reporters and ask them where they got the information, but I doubt they give up their sources.

3. Welker's agent is going to say that he discussed the offer sheet with the Patriots.

Exactly how do you know that? Even if he were to say that, it is his word against theirs and really doesn't accomplish much.


Exactly what is the NFLPA's basis? If there was never an offer sheet executed, I fail to see how they can say any violation occurred.

The NFLPA can't say what the Pats intentions were.

 

[lutontown_fc]

Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

If you're the NFL do you seriously walk into the hearing and claim:

"We were never considering giving Welker an offer sheet"?

Its a bad strategy for three reasons:

1. The terms of the trade make it clear that giving Welker an offer sheet was in the Patriots best interests, as determined by the Patriots.

2. There were extensive media reports to the contrary.

3. Welker's agent is going to say that he discussed the offer sheet with the Patriots.

Wow.

Nobody mentioned anything about 'extensive media reports' before.

That changes EVERYTHING - we should probably offer one of our 1st round picks back to the NFL as a peace offering.

Then Pioli should consider suing the Raiders on the same grounds of 'extensive media reports' to get randy Moss from the Raiders - and their 1st rounder too - personally I have no sympathy for the Raiders - its their fault that these media reports surfaced, and I really wanted Moss.

When will teams finally learn that the media play such an integral part in the legal aspects of a contract and its existence?

 

[14thDragon]

Here is
I'm not sure what the NFLPA will say about offer sheets, considering this was a trade of a player's rights. I don't think the Patriots care whether he was a RFA or not.

I am fairly sure those statements are a CYA manuever. [Offer sheet? What offer sheet? If there had been an offer sheet then we would be guilty of collusion, Q.E.D. an offer sheet never existed.] Essentialy, the FO line from both clubs will be that an offer sheet never existed and that the media was reporting rumour only. Any actual offer sheets that had been drawn up have been shredded and all incrimanting evidence is destroyed. Niether Welker nor his agent ever saw it, and Sheafter who reported it will not expose his source and both FO will say the same thing, they were talking about trading him from the start.

Do I think the FO is not willing to resort to a little collusion to aviod more personel wars? Of course not, they are smart guys and will use every card they have. Do I think they are dumb enough to get caught? Hell NO.

 

[solman]

Here is Pioli's statement

At the time Pioli made these statements, I called BS. But rereading his statement now, he sures gives the impression that he was aware of the potential problem.

My apologies to Pioli for accusing him of disingenuous BS, when he was actually being quite smart.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Welker's agent is a former player for the Raiders... Im not going to worry to much about this..

 

[lutontown_fc]

At the time Pioli made these statements, I called BS. But rereading his statement now, he sures gives the impression that he was aware of the potential problem.

My apologies to Pioli for accusing him of disingenuous BS, when he was actually being quite smart.

Its gets worse for the patriots.

Solman called BS on Pioli!

That HAS to be legally binding.

 

[NE39]

Bottom line is I fail to see the case for any greivance, unless the NFLPA has some sort of smoking gun.

If the basis of their complaint is that they think the Pats intended to give Welker an offer sheet, they better have proof of those intentions. I doubt the Patriots will step and and say anything.

Short of that, this is going nowhere.

 

[Lampshade]

Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

Wow.

Nobody mentioned anything about 'extensive media reports' before.

That changes EVERYTHING - we should probably offer one of our 1st round picks back to the NFL as a peace offering.

Then Pioli should consider suing the Raiders on the same grounds of 'extensive media reports' to get randy Moss from the Raiders - and their 1st rounder too - personally I have no sympathy for the Raiders - its their fault that these media reports surfaced, and I really wanted Moss.

When will teams finally learn that the media play such an integral part in the legal aspects of a contract and its existence?

Now I'm concerned my postings on various message boards might be taken into account. I definitely mentioned an offer sheet once or twice. d%#*!@t.

 

[solman]

Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

The terms of the trade make it clear that giving Welker an offer sheet was in the Patriots best interests, as determined by the Patriots.

How so? The Pats made it clear they looked at this transaction as a straight trade (see Pioli's comments above). They wanted the player, they traded for him. End of story.

Under the terms of the CBA, the Patriots could get Welker by using a poison pill for the same money, and only a 2nd round draft choice. By entering into this trade, and then signing Welker, the Patriots proved that they found those terms desirable.

I'm not saying that this proves the NFLPA's case [which will probably never even be heard], but it proves that the Patriots believed that extending Welker an offer sheet would have been in their own best interests.

[Commenting on the utility of the media reports]

Which means nothing in court. I guess you could call in reporters and ask them where they got the information, but I doubt they give up their sources.

What court? Any disputes under the CBA will be handled by arbitration as specified in the CBA. There is a long history of this. The arbitrator or special master has a wide degree of latitude in determining what information he will consider.

[Commenting on my claim about what Welker's agent would say]

Exactly how do you know that? Even if he were to say that, it is his word against theirs and really doesn't accomplish much.

I believe that Welker's agent would say that the Patriots were going to extend an offer sheet because:

A. As we know from numerous credible press reports, the Patriots were going to extend an offer sheet.

B. The Miami article that started this thread said that it was Welker's agent who initiated the complaint.

Exactly what is the NFLPA's basis? If there was never an offer sheet executed, I fail to see how they can say any violation occurred.

The NFLPA can't say what the Pats intentions were.

Intentions most certainly can be inferred. You don't need a brain scan or a whistleblower to win a collusion case.

In fact, many of the MLBPA's successful collusion claims were based entirely on the rate at which free agent salaries increased.

I didn't think it was fair, but that's how the arbitrator ruled, and that's the environment we live in.

No arbitrator expects colluding parties to admit their collusion.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

IMNSHO - gotta love the honesty in that one...

Well IMHO the only scenarios that makes sense if the article is correct and the agent is making the claim is he is either going along to get along (with the NFLPA whose wrong side agents do not want to land on) because an offer sheet or it's parameters were discussed with him. Or there is also a possibility he was the league source who leaked the potential parameters of a never executed offer sheet to Adam Schefter, and he is now unhappy because he does not get credit for getting Wes Welker signed to a phony 7 year $38M deal for spin purposes.

I would think that to even remotely make a case for collusion would require more than one team avoiding the use of the RFA sheet with a poison pill in it. But didn't at least one other team use just such a sheet last week?

This union really is a sham. What they purportedly want is more player movement rather than less and creating bad blood among potential trading partners doesn't serve that purpose. Although I guess that serves one of their alterior purposes - increased alienation among the those who comprise the entity they sit across the table from on CBA negotiations.

What this is more likely about is the union's displeasure with AD's deal smacking of he took less to play here. As a player you are not supposed to take a deal that makes you happy, you're supposed to demand a deal that fuels the market.

 

[solman]

What this is more likely about is the union's displeasure with AD's deal smacking of he took less to play here. As a player you are not supposed to take a deal that makes you happy, you're supposed to demand a deal that fuels the market.

The size of the pie is fixed.

When AD takes less money so he can be happy and win Superbowls, all the other players get more (to play on their losing franchises).

Any implications that AD's deal have for the next CBA are utterly negligible, and may even be positive for the union.

 

[borg]

If Welker signed the contract, then what is the issue? I can understand that the Patriots sidestepped the restricted FA agency process by bypassing a direct offer to the player, but the player signed the contract after the trade. Also, it was reported that Welker visited the Pats before this trade went down and I can only come to one conclusion that Welker was satisfied with the money. My guess would be that the Players Association approached the agent and asked him to become the point man because it appears that teams could reduce the amount of leverage a player has during the RFA process. In this instance, the collusion appears to be between the Pats and Welker against the Dolphins which resulted in an offer that the Dolphins could not refuse. No harm, no foul, and all parties are satisfied.

 

[PatDaPatriot]

The only person who truly stands to lose anything is Welker's agent. His cut is based on the value of the entire contract. Big difference between $38 million and $18 million. Who complained to the players' association?

 

[patchick]

Probably it will all come to naught, but it looks like a pretty fair thing for the NFLPA to cry foul on.

Realistically, this was not an ordinary trade. The Pats and Dolphins worked together to sidestep the RFA process. Looking again at the CBA passage solman helpfully posted:

"There may be no consideration of any kind given by one Club to another Club...in exchange for a Club’s decision to submit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent..."

The fact that there was no formal offer sheet doesn't matter. The union can argue that Miami agreed to negotiate a trade if the Patriots would not submit an offer sheet and would sweeten the pot above the straight RFA level. The Patriots agreed to cough up the extra pick in order to not submit the RFA offer sheet, and the get the player quicker and cleaner. If that's how it went down, it does seem to be a no-no.

 

[patfanken]

Probably it will all come to naught, but it looks like a pretty fair thing for the NFLPA to cry foul on.

Realistically, this was not an ordinary trade. The Pats and Dolphins worked together to sidestep the RFA process. Looking again at the CBA passage solman helpfully posted:

"There may be no consideration of any kind given by one Club to another Club...in exchange for a Club’s decision to submit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent..."

The fact that there was no formal offer sheet doesn't matter. The union can argue that Miami agreed to negotiate a trade if the Patriots would not submit an offer sheet and would sweeten the pot above the straight RFA level. The Patriots agreed to cough up the extra pick in order to not submit the RFA offer sheet, and the get the player quicker and cleaner. If that's how it went down, it does seem to be a no-no.

Good point. I'm looking forward to hear what WELKER has to say about all think. Clearly he was VERY happy to be here AND with the contract he signed. If I were him, I'd be looking for a new agent. One who would be puttting Welker's interests first not the union's.

BTW - if it turns out that Welker is one of the driving forces BEHIND this, then I think ALL of our impressions of him will quickly change. BUT right now all we can do is wait and see.

 

[borg]

The only person who truly stands to lose anything is Welker's agent. His cut is based on the value of the entire contract. Big difference between $38 million and $18 million. Who complained to the players' association?

Not true. Do you really think players are paying fees based on phantom contract years? No.

 

[RIP#40]

It's not Welker's agent. It the players union, the NFL Agents Association, looking to accuse the owners of collusion for NOT using poison pill contracts. Their position is that the owners all agreed not to use poison pills -- collusion. The Welker deal is their best vehicle for stirring it up, because the media reported an offersheet that was never signed.

The offer sheet wasn't signed because it was never offered, at least that's the way I read the story.