Keys to Victory: Talent, Play Calling, System (in that order)

[newton_tom_cat]

people have gotten too mesmorized with systems over the last few years. that in large part comes from the patriots upset SB victory against the rams, and subsequent winning of 2 of the next 3 SBs. in these cases - especially against rams - it was assumed pats had inferior talent and therefore bellichick's "brilliant system" won the game.

i disagree. i say pats talent was highly under valued. even madden pointed this out on monday night a few years ago in the season we beat eagles for SB #3, at the time, he said pats had the best SS (harrison), best DE (seymour), one of the best NTs (wilfork), the best big game QB (Brady), one of the best RBs (dillon), the best LB corp (vrabel bruschi, mcginnist & colvin), the best DB (law) and one of the best olines.

since then our running game has declined with the aging of dillon, harrison is oft-injured, law is gone, the LB corp has declined with bruschi's age and injury, and seymour and wilfork have also had more injuries. we also lost the best offensive play caller weis to ND. it's no surprise to me this coincides with the lack of super bowl appearances.

it's like seymour said "I never saw a system make a tackle."

that's why i am hopeful that pats will continue to use their cap space and upgrade in several areas and stop believing their own "bellichick's system can overcome anything" propaganda.

 

[maverick4]

I disagree. Keys to victory are COACHING, system, and talent. Yes talent is important, but the NFL is a coaches league more so than any other sports league.

A great coach like Belichick can take an inferior Giants or Patriots team and defeat the Bills or Rams.

The league where talent matters the most is the NBA, where 2 superstars pretty much gives you a ring regardless of mediocre coaching.

 

[newton_tom_cat]

I disagree. Keys to victory are COACHING, system, and talent. Yes talent is important, but the NFL is a coaches league more so than any other sports league.

A great coach like Belichick can take an inferior Giants or Patriots team and defeat the Bills or Rams.

The league where talent matters the most is the NBA, where 2 superstars pretty much gives you a ring regardless of mediocre coaching.

if you want to include "talent evaluation and cap utilization" under coaching then fine, but pure "system" coaching is over rated. if not, how do u explain the last 2 years where we've had brilliant bill and not even made the super bowl? you telling me all of a sudden dungy and shanahan (coaches of teams eliminated us) became smarter? clearly the determinant variable has been loss of talent and loss of weis play calling. not saying bellichick is bad, just saying his "systems can conquer all" mentality that kraft has bought into has go to go if this team will ever get back on track.

 

[bradmahn]

Before I begin, I consider the coaching part of scouting and player evaluations.

COACHING is the most important thing in the NFL. You can have all the talent in the world, but without good coaching you are going to have nothing when it matters most (ask the Chargers).

The System is designed by the Coaching. The System does not make the coaching, good Coaching makes the System. The same can be said for Playcalling because the Coaches make the calls. Playcalling is part of the System and the System is part of the Coaching.

So...

Coaches are the most important. Then Talent.

If I had to break it down further I would say:
The System, Talent, Playcalling

This is all arbitrary, however, and a pointless discussion. Good coaching can overcome limited talent deficiencies, but if you have Chad Browns, Monty Beisels, and Duane Starks, all the coaching in the world will do you no good.

 

[The Predator]

without the coach you do not have a system. without a system you have no idea what type of talent you are looking for. your theory is debunked.

 

[Return of the Nizz]

if you want to include "talent evaluation and cap utilization" under coaching then fine, but pure "system" coaching is over rated. if not, how do u explain the last 2 years where we've had brilliant bill and not even made the super bowl? you telling me all of a sudden dungy and shanahan (coaches of teams eliminated us) became smarter? clearly the determinant variable has been loss of talent and loss of weis play calling. not saying bellichick is bad, just saying his "systems can conquer all" mentality that kraft has bought into has go to go if this team will ever get back on track.

The best system in the world is not going to overcome injuries and turnovers. Football isn't like life where your pure talent at stupidity is all that is necessary to flood a messageboard with inane posts.

 

[maverick4]

if not, how do u explain the last 2 years where we've had brilliant bill and not even made the super bowl?

Bill gives his assistants a lot of autonomy, and over the past two years our still growing OC has been impotent. He is improving though.

 

[TeamPats]

The best system in the world is not going to overcome injuries and turnovers. Football isn't like life where your pure talent at stupidity is all that is necessary to flood a messageboard with inane posts.

I don't know, while that is true of course, injuries can be crippling for most teams, the Patriots continue to do things no other team has ever done when it comes to overcoming injuries. The coaches make certain every player is prepared as if they are the starter, and since all 53 players of the Patriots team play and are a part of the gameplan, should someone go down the Patriots do not skip a beat. This is direct reflection of the coaching in my opinion.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

The best system in the world is not going to overcome injuries and turnovers. Football isn't like life where your pure talent at stupidity is all that is necessary to flood a messageboard with inane posts.

LOL!!!! That was a good one!!!!!!

 

[Yankees/Colts]

Talent, Play Calling, System (in that order)

That's true when you talk about the Colts, not the Patriots.

The Colts run the same plays over and over and over and over. They also do the same several simple things on defense over and over. I would add a few things and put it in this order. Colts:

Talent, preparation, timing, play calling, system

Now the Pats have always been completely the opposite. They go:

System, play calling, talent

The Pats haven't won because Brady reads and carves up defenses. They've won because a screen play was called at the perfect time, a draw was called at the perfect time, a trick play, a tackle eligible, a quick out, a quick snap. The Pats have always had beautiful play calling which kept the defense off balance. Same thing on defense. They weren't getting by as much on talent as they were Belichick confusing opposing offenses.

Both ways work, but the only problem is that Peyton has figured Belichick out, and maybe that's why the Pats are going nuts in free agency and perhaps trying to move into the Colts way of doing things.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I think in football more than any other sport. It starts at the top, the owner. The owner sets the organization up and hires the right people for the right jobs.
His success at doing that usually spells success or failure for an organizaton.

 

[newton_tom_cat]

That's true when you talk about the Colts, not the Patriots.

The Colts run the same plays over and over and over and over. They also do the same several simple things on defense over and over. I would add a few things and put it in this order. Colts:

Talent, preparation, timing, play calling, system

Now the Pats have always been completely the opposite. They go:

System, play calling, talent

The Pats haven't won because Brady reads and carves up defenses. They've won because a screen play was called at the perfect time, a draw was called at the perfect time, a trick play, a tackle eligible, a quick out, a quick snap. The Pats have always had beautiful play calling which kept the defense off balance. Same thing on defense. They weren't getting by as much on talent as they were Belichick confusing opposing offenses.

Both ways work, but the only problem is that Peyton has figured Belichick out, and maybe that's why the Pats are going nuts in free agency and perhaps trying to move into the Colts way of doing things.

i agree with your analysis somewhat, but pats superior play calling was enabled by having talent that could execute the plays. with lesser talent the playbook has to be scaled back so much the offense becomes predictable. sound like this year? same applies to defense. the TD run that clinched the colts victory the righ defense formation had been called, problem was bruschi's ineffectiveness allowed the runner to roll right by him.

 

[skaIownsIyou]

people have gotten too mesmorized with systems over the last few years. that in large part comes from the patriots upset SB victory against the rams, and subsequent winning of 2 of the next 3 SBs. in these cases - especially against rams - it was assumed pats had inferior talent and therefore bellichick's "brilliant system" won the game.

i disagree. i say pats talent was highly under valued. even madden pointed this out on monday night a few years ago in the season we beat eagles for SB #3, at the time, he said pats had the best SS (harrison), best DE (seymour), one of the best NTs (wilfork), the best big game QB (Brady), one of the best RBs (dillon), the best LB corp (vrabel bruschi, mcginnist & colvin), the best DB (law) and one of the best olines.

since then our running game has declined with the aging of dillon, harrison is oft-injured, law is gone, the LB corp has declined with bruschi's age and injury, and seymour and wilfork have also had more injuries. we also lost the best offensive play caller weis to ND. it's no surprise to me this coincides with the lack of super bowl appearances.

it's like seymour said "I never saw a system make a tackle."

that's why i am hopeful that pats will continue to use their cap space and upgrade in several areas and stop believing their own "bellichick's system can overcome anything" propaganda.

thats why the chargers pounded the pats this year in the divisonal game...

 

[newton_tom_cat]

thats why the chargers pounded the pats this year in the divisonal game...

i look at it the other way: i think SD has the best talent in the league when you consider both offense and defense. so good that they were able to have the best record in the league even though they had a complete loser for head coach.

hey look its not like i said "system" doesnt matter at all, i just rank it 3rd behimd talent and play calling. theyre all important, it's a matter of priority. another example: jimmy johnson wins 2 super bowl in dallas and his replacement switzer wins one too with what was clearly the best talent in the league. johnson goes to miami and barely makes the playoffs. switzer no team even wants. you can't tell me coaching/system over rides talent. as a matter of fact even jimmy johnson admitted the most important thing is talent.

 

[mgcolby]

if you want to include "talent evaluation and cap utilization" under coaching then fine, but pure "system" coaching is over rated. if not, how do u explain the last 2 years where we've had brilliant bill and not even made the super bowl? you telling me all of a sudden dungy and shanahan (coaches of teams eliminated us) became smarter? clearly the determinant variable has been loss of talent and loss of weis play calling. not saying bellichick is bad, just saying his "systems can conquer all" mentality that kraft has bought into has go to go if this team will ever get back on track.

Or it could have been because of 5 turnovers committed by three players that have 3 SuperBowl rings each in 2005.

Then travelling across country to play the most talented team in football and then flying home having a bunch of guys come down with the flu and then fly to Indy to play one of the most talented offensive teams in the NFL and losing half of your defense in the second half to cramping and flu like symptoms in 2006?

Not sure but those things might of had something to do with the last two post season losses?


:bricks:

 

[Yankees/Colts]

The flu excuse is awesome!!! :rocker:

The myth has grown so large, I'm starting to think it was maybe in reality the ebola virus.

 

[newton_tom_cat]

Or it could have been because of 5 turnovers committed by three players that have 3 SuperBowl rings each in 2005.

Then travelling across country to play the most talented team in football and then flying home having a bunch of guys come down with the flu and then fly to Indy to play one of the most talented offensive teams in the NFL and losing half of your defense in the second half to cramping and flu like symptoms in 2006?

Not sure but those things might of had something to do with the last two post season losses?


:bricks:

im sure they had something to do with it. im also sure not having a comparative regular season record as good as other years led to all the away games. and im pretty sure the reduction in talent had something to do with the poorer relative regular season records.

 

[mgcolby]

The flu excuse is awesome!!! :rocker:

The myth has grown so large, I'm starting to think it was maybe in reality the ebola virus.

If you weren't an idiot I would actually explain it to you! But here is where it would have ended

Blaming the refs and getting an added "emphasis" = excuse!

 

[Return of the Nizz]

That's true when you talk about the Colts, not the Patriots.

The Colts run the same plays over and over and over and over. They also do the same several simple things on defense over and over. I would add a few things and put it in this order. Colts:

Talent, preparation, timing, play calling, system

Talent, Holding, Dome, Play calling, system.

Fixed it for you.

 

[mgcolby]

im sure they had something to do with it. im also sure not having a comparative regular season record as good as other years led to all the away games. and im pretty sure the reduction in talent had something to do with the poorer relative regular season records.

we went 12-4 not exactly a poor season. You can blame the Denver loss on talent, continuity with the receivers etc.. and have a valid argument.

But the Colts loss had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with Turnovers. The Jets loss was simply a bad game and the Dolphins well.. it's the Dolphins in Miami that is a loss more often than not.

Don't schedules and injuries affect that as well?

And what reduction in talent? WR? Do injuries account for this "reduction in talent"?

Do yourself a favor - go back and look at the starting roster from the 2004 AFCC game and the SB and compare it to this years starters?

Remember in 2004 we didn't have to play musical chairs with our starting/rotational LB's and we didn't lose our starting Safeties to injuries during the playoffs.

Didn't we already discuss this "reduction in talent" issue in thread about how the Pats lost their edge in FA? I am sure we did - did you not understand it then?