Several good reasons why we can use a speed burning #1 WR

[PATRIOT64]

O.K. So we won Super Bowls without a superstar speed burning WR but I think it would turn this team into a serious Super Bowl contender next season (if we aren't already) with a WR that can outright fly and for several reasons including....

Would stop good defenses from stuffing the box respecting the WR who could run away from man on man coverage,thus immediately would make DC think about less blitzing and more spread out D formations.

With defenses staying back and with less blitzes from safeties you would see less of Brady getting blindside blitzes from corners and safeties which caused a fumble and turnover on the very first regular season play last year and happened several times after that,although proper blocking by OL with help from the RB TE would help too,It may also save Brady from serious injury as well.

With any team that has a burner #1 WR you also usually have a great running game,Maroney and Morris would have excellent numbers by having the DBs stay back in the secondary worrying about getting caught with an open WR that was mistakenly left alone because a safety was helping out a corner in double teaming the quick #1 WR.

Last year when it was 3rd and short it was almost automatic we were going to run the ball,with a quick WR in action we will make them think more,thus more headaches for the DCs in the league,Gaffney and Caldwell were NOT respected as a breakaway threat by any DB or LB in the league,thats for sure and caused our running game to suffer a bit with defensive secondaries playing so close up it looked sometimes like the opposing safeties and corners were set up on the LOS before the snap,especially later in the season as Maroney struggled to find any room to run and Dillon looked as slow as a 50 year old man hitting the hole.

To close my argument is the simple fact that a #1 WR helps out the WHOLE offense,not just the WR position,OL-QB-RB all improve stats and performance when you got a dangerous weapon on your team that can run away and score at anytime which was never a thing in 2006 despite the excellent season that fell short of a championship and a speedy WR would have been the difference for winning #4 last year-without a single doubt,IMO.

Despite the success in the past without a regular dangerous WR like a Jerry Rice or even a Reggie Wayne type player,I think this year we should make an attempt to grab a runaway breaking WR (Moss,Stallworth ect) - and If we do expect even a greater season to come than last years team,Drafting a rookie is possible to help with that but there is rarely a Colston out there unless you get lucky so FA is our best hope for help with this.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

2 Words Donte Stallworth... :rocker:

 

[holyredeemer]

2 Words Donte Stallworth... :rocker:

2 words injury prone. Oh, 2 more words over priced. d%#*!@t, 2 more. Prima Donna. Okay, last but not least. One dimensional. Alright, I'm done.

 

[PATRIOT64]

2 Words Donte Stallworth... :rocker:

Maybe the Steelers should pick him up...Last time they had a WR guy named 'Stallworth' he played pretty well for them

 

[FilPats]

O.K. So we won Super Bowls without a superstar speed burning WR but I think it would turn this team into a serious Super Bowl contender next season (if we aren't already) with a WR that can outright fly and for several reasons including....

Would stop good defenses from stuffing the box respecting the WR who could run away from man on man coverage,thus immediately would make DC think about less blitzing and more spread out D formations.

With defenses staying back and with less blitzes from safeties you would see less of Brady getting blindside blitzes from corners and safeties which caused a fumble and turnover on the very first regular season play last year and happened several times after that,although proper blocking by OL with help from the RB TE would help too,It may also save Brady from serious injury as well.

With any team that has a burner #1 WR you also usually have a great running game,Maroney and Morris would have excellent numbers by having the DBs stay back in the secondary worrying about getting caught with an open WR that was mistakenly left alone because a safety was helping out a corner in double teaming the quick #1 WR.

Last year when it was 3rd and short it was almost automatic we were going to run the ball,with a quick WR in action we will make them think more,thus more headaches for the DCs in the league,Gaffney and Caldwell were NOT respected as a breakaway threat by any DB or LB in the league,thats for sure and caused our running game to suffer a bit with defensive secondaries playing so close up it looked sometimes like the opposing safeties and corners were set up on the LOS before the snap,especially later in the season as Maroney struggled to find any room to run and Dillon looked as slow as a 50 year old man hitting the hole.

To close my argument is the simple fact that a #1 WR helps out the WHOLE offense,not just the WR position,OL-QB-RB all improve stats and performance when you got a dangerous weapon on your team that can run away and score at anytime which was never a thing in 2006 despite the excellent season that fell short of a championship and a speedy WR would have been the difference for winning #4 last year-without a single doubt,IMO.

Despite the success in the past without a regular dangerous WR like a Jerry Rice or even a Reggie Wayne type player,I think this year we should make an attempt to grab a runaway breaking WR (Moss,Stallworth ect) - and If we do expect even a greater season to come than last years team,Drafting a rookie is possible to help with that but there is rarely a Colston out there unless you get lucky so FA is our best hope for help with this.

Agree. The Colts passing game opened the running game for them as well. Addai had a good regular season and playoffs. Go Pats:rocker:

 

[Fencer]

1. Of course we COULD use a fast receiver. Otherwise BB would be an idiot for drafting Johnson, Jackson, and Sam.

2. We're already Super Bowl contenders. Indeed, we should be and evidently are regarded as the early favorites, given how the various teams ranked last year, how they entered the offseason in terms of cap room, picks, etc., and how the very early FA process has gone.

The Patriots look to be net GAINERS of talent in FA this offseason, which gives them a nice advantage over the other AFC division winners.

The Pats also have a bit more in the way of injury-return than other teams do, and relatively little in the way of aging issues.

Of course, this assumes Samuel actually stays..

 

[satz]

2 word bethal johnson....he is a burner and all we need is a dude to run deep get him back for a veteran minium. :bricks:

I never understood the love for the colts... lets trade our defence for their + reggiwayne + clark......polian will be allover this trade..

 

[maverick4]

Explain to me how a speed burner magically causes teams not to 'stack the box' or keep a safety deep?

I think a defense plays our offensive formations way more than putting a Bethel Johnson type guy on the wing.

The reason we keep getting teams stacking the box against us is due to our crappy 2-TE formation, as well as too many formations where we line the receivers up right next to the offensive line. That, and the fact that our OC doesn't know what to do against a stacked box.

 

[DarrylS]

This type of thread sounds like it makes sense to a fan, but probably not as much to the Patriots Brass. Terms like "speed burner", "stretch the field" and "shut down corner" sounds like terms used in fantasy football not the NFL. While the long pass looks pretty, this team is about "Moving the Chains", it makes no difference if you do it in 10, 25, 50 or 80 yard chunks just keep moving them and controlling the game.

I like the way Indianapolis does things, and think they have a great offense, and know how to use their players. Indianapolis entered the FA part of the season with virtually no money to spend, while we had a bunch and seemed to have shopped well. Right now on paper we have probably surpassed them, but the equalizer will now be the great coaching of this team and using all of the current and new offensive weapons. I for one do not agree with your premise, we have Watson and Jackson(if healthy) who can meet this need and will serve us well.

 

[the taildragger]

IMO, WR is by far the biggest weakness on the team.

I'm not going to debate it. You either get it or you don't. We can simply stack the defense and go back to trying to pull out 3-point games or continue evolving into a more dynamic/productive unit on the other side of the ball.

IMO, we're only one player away from becoming a truly dominant team...as great as Adalius is, and as big a part of the future of this team, he's not the guy who can take us to the level of dominance we're so close to achieving.

Folks, forget about Bethel Johnson. Nobody took him seriously because he didn't know what the hell he was doing out there, not because "speed only matters to fans and not GMs"...nonsense.

Nobody's asking for a track star....what we need is a guy who defenses have to double team deep downfield.

Watson and Jackson have potential...but potential doesn't win championships...and last year is all the evidence anyone should need.

This is the 21st century NFL...nobody here is arguing that moving the chains isn't the best strategy to win games....believe it or not, a serious, reliable, tall/fast, deep threat to compliment our quick guys would make it easier to MOVE THE CHAINS.

The best line in this thread was that a legitimate deep threat makes the entire offense better. Just because we've historically gotten by without one doesn't change the fundamentals.

I read the someone comparing Caldwell's stats to Branch's two years ago and trying to argue that they were similar guys...wrong. Branch commanded much more attention from DC's and therefore helped open up the rest of the offense. He's not as good without TB, obviously...nobody is. But together they had true synergy.

If we'd completely lost our running game last year (like '05) Caldwell wouldn't have come close to replicating the success that Branch had in '05.

You have to like Welker. The deal isn't confirmed so, until I'm reserving judgement, but it sounds like he's getting what Branch was looking for last September....if true, that's a little sad.

Again, I completely support the Welker signing...he fills a specific need in the WR corps. As much as he resembles Troy, he's also a bit like a tougher version of Branch, who given time, could develop a similar rapport with TB.

I'd just like to get a gazelle too...a Moss-type.

It's wishful thinking until we decide to make it a reality...

 

[mgteich]

Gaffney, Jackson, Welker and Watson can all "stretch the field. The question is whether any are good enough to command double coverage. Are any capable of making circus catches, and catch the imperfect ball, as all top receivers do. We don't have a #1 receiver. We could use one.

 

[holyredeemer]

IMO, WR is by far the biggest weakness on the team.

I'm not going to debate it. You either get it or you don't. We can simply stack the defense and go back to trying to pull out 3-point games or continue evolving into a more dynamic/productive unit on the other side of the ball.

Well, I know I get it, and the Pats FO gets it (If Branch was this player you claim him to be then they would not have let him leave) but I dont think you really get it. Caldwell was in the first yr. playing this system, Branch has been in it for five yrs.
The only difference between our 05 running game and 06 running game was essentially .5 yds a carry. Branch didnt step it up HUGE for us in 05 due to the loss of our running game like some all pro receiver. He just actually played a whole season without getting hurt. I loved Branch as much as the next guy, but c'mon, lets back up this argument with some actual facts.
(ya' know, stats?)

Also, tell me how in 05, Branch commanded soooo much more from DC. That is bull****. Please tell me, off the top of your head if you can, how many 100 yd receiving games did Branch have for us in 2005? Branch was so hot n cold and extemely injury prone. He got hot in the playoffs, sure, I'll give him that one. However, for some reason he thought he was hot ****, and worth more then he really was, and it appears to me that some fans fell into that trap as well.

Oh, by the way. The answer to my question is ONE. Yeah, ONE! Only one 100 yard game after 5 yrs. in the system, and playing his first full healthy season. I will give you one thing however, it did seem like Branch ran alot more crossing routes and caught alot more balls across the middle. I wouldnt be surprised if Gaffney continues to see an increased role in that dept. like he did in the playoffs for us. Remember, in the playoffs, our WR led all playoff teams in receptions and yds. If that trend continues with caldwell and gaffney, not to mention a player like welker in the slot, our WR position is fine.

On the moss and stallworth subject, having big play deep threats like that would be great, but I honestly wonder how many times Brady would miss them on deep throws before they would start *****in and whining. Brady has never been a tremendous deep ball QB.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Explain to me how a speed burner magically causes teams not to 'stack the box' or keep a safety deep?

I think a defense plays our offensive formations way more than putting a Bethel Johnson type guy on the wing.

The reason we keep getting teams stacking the box against us is due to our crappy 2-TE formation, as well as too many formations where we line the receivers up right next to the offensive line. That, and the fact that our OC doesn't know what to do against a stacked box.

The key is the ability to catch 2 balls or so a game - no more - something Bethel never could really do.

I think it's understood by most that Patriot64 isn't advocating for a guy like Bethel who can run fast but can't catch.

Obviously the person actually has to be a deep threat to keep defenses honest.

I'd just note that speed isn't the only aspect - running a deep route well, and being quick rather than fast has helped plenty of guys get 18 - 21 ypc averages for 30 passes a season.

That's really all one needs.

I'd say the main reason we saw defenses "stack the box" had more to do with the fact that our deepest "deep threat" averaged 13 ypc.

The difference between 13 and 18 ypc might not seem like a lot, but it does make a difference between defenders hanging back only 15 yards as opposed to 25 yards plus - not to mention the ability of a D to free up a Safety or two, knowing the CBs can cover man to man with little risk of being burned

 

[The Predator]

O.K. So we won Super Bowls without a superstar speed burning WR but I think it would turn this team into a serious Super Bowl contender next season (if we aren't already) with a WR that can outright fly and for several reasons including....

when was the last time a SB was won with a superstar speed burning WR? I cannot think of one recently in the salary cap era. harrison and wayne are not superstar speed burners either.

 

[The Predator]

Brady has never been a tremendous deep ball QB.

pretty funny how you never have anyone to throw a legit deep ball to and you will not be a tremendous deep ball QB.

 

[JoeSixPat]

when was the last time a SB was won with a superstar speed burning WR? I cannot think of one recently in the salary cap era. harrison and wayne are not superstar speed burners either.

I'm not sure about a "speed burner" but we've had deep threats under Brady that have helped us greatly. David Patten was one and even Tim Dwight's/Andre Davis's combined 30 catches helped keep defenses honest.

I actually don't think it would have taken much more than having a healthy Tim Dwight running some deep routes as a proven NFL deep threat commodity to keep secondaries in the secondary where they belong.

 

[kas]

Well, I disagree that we need a #1.

Those big/fast #1 guys are nearly impossible to acquire (top half of round 1) and/or cost a ton. Obviously, WR is a position BB/Pioli feel can be fulfilled with cheaper players. We let Patten go, we let Givens go, we let Branch go. This is just their way of thinking, and I agree.

I think it is a "sexy" way of thinking that we should become an attacking offense. That is, we dictate the tempo with our offense and force the opponent to adjust to us. This is the Colts and Bengals strategy, for instance. However, as long as BB is here we will be a defensive team first and foremost. D will get the majority of the assets available (cap space, draft picks). Therefore, it you want to classify our offense in a particular way, an appropriate title would be a "reaction" offense, if that makes any sense. Rather than force a defense to adjust to our strengths and try to take them away, the Pats target system and personnel weaknesses in the D and then try to attack them. That's why some weeks you'll see Watson go for 7 catches, then he'll disappear for a stretch while our short side WR seems to be the focus. Maybe their #1 CB can take away one WR, but we still have another receiver, a TE or two, and maybe a back. Obviously, the key to this is having as many threats as possible who can take advantage of a weaker #2 corner, or a slow LB, or an overaggressive S. Locate a weakness and attack it. That's the offense and it won't change as long as Brady is QB. Why? Because this is one of his best strengths as a QB. He makes quick reads and gets the ball to the open man. He spreads the ball out really well. Now, that's why our WR corps is filled with a bunch of #2 types (or 1b if you prefer). Now, depending on the defense and the play, Tom can attack where the defense presents its weakness, and be confident that his guy is better than the guy trying to cover him.

So, we could spend the early draft pick and/or 7 mil a year for a real #1. However, this guy would still only get 75-80 catches, while the lesser threats still see a ton of balls. Ideally, of course, everyone would love a real true #1. However, I'll live with the 15-20 less catches by our assumed #1, while the extra money can be spent elsewhere (most notably on D, where due to our little spending on WR's we can splurge a bit on DL and LB's).

As for the pulling the safeties back - this is not true at all. Our offense is a complicated read and react O. The WR's must be on the same page as the QB and see the same thing, making the same adjustment. That's why BB targets smarter players, while bigger/faster but dumber receivers (like BJ, PK Sam, Donald Hayes, etc.) struggle. On a side note, I think that's why BB has taken a liking to Florida receivers, as both Spurrier and Meyer offenses rely on critical WR reads. A WR won't run, for instance, a go route into a deep zone, unless he is specifically a penetrator to open up space underneath (in that case TB wouldn't throw him the ball anyways). Therefore, even if we had a #1 WR threat, he still would be required to make the necessary reads and adjust his route/depth accordingly, by and large wasting his usefulness.

Basically, I think having a true #1 WR is a luxury we can afford to live without in the salary cap era.

 

[maverick4]

The key is the ability to catch 2 balls or so a game - no more - something Bethel never could really do.

This doesn't make any sense to me. The entire premise of this thread only works if a deep threat speed burner is in there on most of our offensive plays, not just to catch 2 balls. The safeties will crowd the box if this guy is out of the game, and it takes good play-calling to beat a defense, not a speed savior.