Should the Pats consider signing Aqib Talib long-term?

[Ivan]

If Talib were willing to take 3-4 years 16-20 million with 8-10 guaranteed and behavioral clauses then I think that it would get done, however if he wants 8-10 million a year then there is no way he returns without a tag, which will be available because they won't tag Spikes. I doubt they will tag Talib and don't believe he would respond well to it anyways but the option will be there.

 

[VrabelJr]

I don't want a single penny on this team going to anyone until McCourty gets his due.

 

[Ivan]

I don't want a single penny on this team going to anyone until McCourty gets his due.

I don't think that's how they do things but agree that McCourty should be a priority for them. Whether or not that gets done is really going to be up to Mccourty's camp imo, if he is willing to take a deal that is patriots friendly, as Gronk and Ninkovich did then it should get done relatively easily, but what value they put on safety is also going to play a significant role in the negotiations. I would go longer term with MccCourty than with Talib and look for a five year deal around 30 million, he's worth it and if they somehow were able to get both done then they will be in good shape defensively going forward. D-Line is going to be the next priority for the next draft.

 

[JackBauer]

If they're wise they will.

 

[supafly]

I think you may be misconstruing Patchick's point here Supa. I can't speak for her but I'd suggest she's saying that teams struggle to find athletic well-sized press man CBs with shut down upside outside the top end of the first round and the Patriots are never in position to ever draft such a beast. That one has fallen in to our laps should not be dismissed lightly.

I won't speak to another posters meaning, but your point is well taken.

Thanks for the clarification, and if I did not understand the main point then apologies to patchick for not fully getting her thoughts.

My only stance in the whole discussion is that IF Talib is not resigned, they may be able to try and continue some of the same kind of aggressive man coverage scheme with another free agent who they may see as better value. There are still other parts in place (Dennard, Arrington at the star, McCourty and Gregory better safety play) where the team may feel that another "comparable" talent may be able to help them run the same kind of scheme.

The question is whether you believe that it's been the kind of player or the specific player that has allowed the other parts to play their effective positions. Last year most felt that it was the "kind" of player (halfway decent man coverage CB). This year most now feel that it is the "specific player" in Aqib Talib, and that no one else could possibly fill that role.

What the truth is I really don't know. I just stated a very basic point that has been brought up many times. I'm not wanting to let Talib walk, I'm just pointing out sometimes Belichick does not see things the same way as the fans do. Hopefully they are able to reach an agreement, but I also think that both sides are going to want to see what the market brings in free agency first before moving further.

 

[Ivan]

Thanks for the clarification, and if I did not understand the main point then apologies to patchick for not fully getting her thoughts.

My only stance in the whole discussion is that IF Talib is not resigned, they may be able to try and continue some of the same kind of aggressive man coverage scheme with another free agent who they may see as better value. There are still other parts in place (Dennard, Arrington at the star, McCourty and Gregory better safety play) where the team may feel that another "comparable" talent may be able to help them run the same kind of scheme.

The question is whether you believe that it's been the kind of player or the specific player that has allowed the other parts to play their effective positions. Last year most felt that it was the "kind" of player (halfway decent man coverage CB). This year most now feel that it is the "player" in Aqib Talib, and that no one else could possibly fill that role.

What the truth is I really don't know. I just stated a very basic point that has been brought up many times. I'm not wanting to let Talib walk, I'm just pointing out sometimes Belichick does not see things the same way as the fans do. Hopefully they are able to reach an agreement, but I also think that both sides are going to want to see what the market brings in free agency first before moving further.

I think the disconnect with Belichick on free agency is that where we all want the star players there are only a handful who Belichick would pay a premium to, and almost all never hit the open market. he also won't pay the big money to players who play outside the hashes because imo he doesn't think they are involved in enough plays to warrant huge money to. While he would pay a DT like Wilfork big money he won't pay 50 million to any CB or WR regardless of how good they are. Now he might be able to to make an exception for C. Johnson or L. Fitzgerald it wouldn't be at the price they command, but possible at half of it, which is obviously very very very unlikely to ever happen. if he could get Fitzgerald for Mike Wallace money he would consider it, but never at 100 million.

 

[manxman2601]

Thanks for the clarification, and if I did not understand the main point then apologies to patchick for not fully getting her thoughts.

My only stance in the whole discussion is that IF Talib is not resigned, they may be able to try and continue some of the same kind of aggressive man coverage scheme with another free agent who they may see as better value. There are still other parts in place (Dennard, Arrington at the star, McCourty and Gregory better safety play) where the team may feel that another "comparable" talent may be able to help them run the same kind of scheme.

The question is whether you believe that it's been the kind of player or the specific player that has allowed the other parts to play their effective positions. Last year most felt that it was the "kind" of player (halfway decent man coverage CB). This year most now feel that it is the "player" in Aqib Talib, and that no one else could possibly fill that role.

What the truth is I really don't know. I just stated a very basic point that has been brought up many times. I'm not wanting to let Talib walk, I'm just pointing out sometimes Belichick does not see things the same way as the fans do. Hopefully they are able to reach an agreement, but I also think that both sides are going to want to see what the market brings in free agency first before moving further.

I agree that BB's approach and the fans are often poles apart. I was also not a big fan of the Talib signing initially. But, the more I think about it, the more I think that Talib is just what BB wants playing the position. It's not that another "halfway decent man coverage CB" can't be found, it's whether a 6'1" 4.4 with good ball skills and COD skills and in his prime can be found and I'm less sure that he can. BB might just like Talib because he is exactly what BB wants at that position.

The big question of course is character and there is just no way for us to know how BB perceives Talib's character and I think this kind of makes this particular aspect of Talib a moot debating point. So the question becomes, will BB pay for a CB that possibly (probably?) perfectly fits BB's demands at the position and at what point does the price become too much?

The link below has the top salaries for the position. If they can get a lower guarantee and can keep his salary below $9 mil, then I say go for it. Quality 6' + press man corners do not grow on trees.

http://www.overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=CB

FWIW, Talib is currently the 4th best CB in terms of snaps/reception.

 

[supafly]

While he would pay a DT like Wilfork big money he won't pay 50 million to any CB or WR regardless of how good they are.

That is one of my concerns, along with the situation of Devin McCourty coming up the next season. I'm not as sure as others that they will be keeping both. We'll have to see how it works out.

Like others have said, if Talib is willing to take a reasonable deal then he has a much better chance of staying here. If he's going to be looking for top dollar and shopping himself around that will probably be a different story.

 

[Ivan]

That is one of my concerns, along with the situation of Devin McCourty coming up the next season. I'm not as sure as others that they will be keeping both. We'll have to see how it works out.

Like others have said, if Talib is willing to take a reasonable deal then he has a much better chance of staying here. If he's going to be looking for top dollar and shopping himself around that will probably be a different story.

I don't think he will go much over 20 for Talib for four or 30 for McCourty over 5 years. i think they see both as 5-6 million a year player but not more than that. but that's just my take on it.

 

[mgteich]

We'll see in the off-season. I find it unreasonable for Talib to accept a long-term $5M a year contract, when will have just played through a one year show-me contract. If Talib can show the league that he is a shutdown corner, then it seems likely that someone will pay him $8M.

If Talib were willing to take 3-4 years 16-20 million with 8-10 guaranteed and behavioral clauses then I think that it would get done, however if he wants 8-10 million a year then there is no way he returns without a tag, which will be available because they won't tag Spikes. I doubt they will tag Talib and don't believe he would respond well to it anyways but the option will be there.

 

[RayClay]

Thanks for the clarification, and if I did not understand the main point then apologies to patchick for not fully getting her thoughts.

My only stance in the whole discussion is that IF Talib is not resigned, they may be able to try and continue some of the same kind of aggressive man coverage scheme with another free agent who they may see as better value. There are still other parts in place (Dennard, Arrington at the star, McCourty and Gregory better safety play) where the team may feel that another "comparable" talent may be able to help them run the same kind of scheme.

The question is whether you believe that it's been the kind of player or the specific player that has allowed the other parts to play their effective positions. Last year most felt that it was the "kind" of player (halfway decent man coverage CB). This year most now feel that it is the "specific player" in Aqib Talib, and that no one else could possibly fill that role.

What the truth is I really don't know. I just stated a very basic point that has been brought up many times. I'm not wanting to let Talib walk, I'm just pointing out sometimes Belichick does not see things the same way as the fans do. Hopefully they are able to reach an agreement, but I also think that both sides are going to want to see what the market brings in free agency first before moving further.

I reiterate what I think Patchicks point was. I'd have to go back to 2006 to find a big Pats CB who could take on these big receivers and Chad Scott was a backup at the end of his career. Besides that there is Glass I Dowling, like an injury risk taken to get the size talent combination and Talib.

Tall CBs command a premium and even first rounders have been known to wash out. We only got him because of a conflict with his coach. We aren't picking up a similar player, so we'll have to pay with a draft pick if we get one that high and maybe they wash out, so "a bird in the hand."

Much like the athletic 300+ player (if you recall the BB quote) they only make so many.

 

[manxman2601]

On the other hand, I'm not sure BB will want his players to "live out loud".

“If you ask me what I came to do in this world, I, an artist, will answer you: I am here to live out loud.” - Aqib Talib

https://twitter.com/tomecurran/status/382627698310250496

 

[Marqui]

What does "live out loud" mean and why is it bad?

 

[manxman2601]

What does "live out loud" mean and why is it bad?

Whilst i'm not down with the urban lingua franca, I'm going to suggest that it's the antithesis of the Patriot way. Let's face it, "live out loud" is not something you'd associate with BB, Brady, Mayo, Wilfork etc etc. Gronk on the other hand...

 

[RayClay]

Whilst i'm not down with the urban lingua franca, I'm going to suggest that it's the antithesis of the Patriot way. Let's face it, "live out loud" is not something you'd associate with BB, Brady, Mayo, Wilfork etc etc. Gronk on the other hand...

Kind of nitpicky isn't it? What he's said and done since coming here is more telling than some silly twitter quote IMO. The best cornerbacks have big egos and are ****y, so I'll take that trade off.

 

[manxman2601]

Kind of nitpicky isn't it? What he's said and done since coming here is more telling than some silly twitter quote IMO. The best cornerbacks have big egos and are ****y, so I'll take that trade off.

As I said earlier in this thread, there's actually no way for us to know how Talib has behaved rendering any discussion about his character moot.

 

[supafly]

We'll see in the off-season. I find it unreasonable for Talib to accept a long-term $5M a year contract, when will have just played through a one year show-me contract. If Talib can show the league that he is a shutdown corner, then it seems likely that someone will pay him $8M.

I'd have to tend to agree with your projections too, but that's why I'm a bit leery as to a deal getting done prior to seeing what the market is doing, which obviously won't occur until the start of free agency.

How close it is to this past year (down numbers) or the regular standard remains to be seen, but I'd have to think that 5m AAV is a bit low too. If both DMcC and Talib can be had for 5-6m AAV on long term deals than we should run and sign them both in my opinion.

 

[RayClay]

As I said earlier in this thread, there's actually no way for us to know how Talib has behaved rendering any discussion about his character moot.

I'll agree we don't know, but he was one of the off season award winners, everything he's said has been positive (except a silly sounding tweet) and everyone is saying very positive things bout him and he's playing well.

Obviously, the decision is up to what BB sees and thinks.

 

[supafly]

As I said earlier in this thread, there's actually no way for us to know how Talib has behaved rendering any discussion about his character moot.

I'm not personally as concerned with his character issues as I was last year, and Talib seems to have turned the corner a bit in terms of attitude even winning an award in the offseason for his hard work and leadership. Belichick has commented on his leadership this season, as have other members of the team.

My only concern (outside of those 2 nagging hip and hamstring injuries every single season) would be that Talib will be looking to cash in a bit too much, which is often the main problem with any deal that cannot be agreed to.

EDIT: I see RayClay has posted the same thoughts

 

[mgteich]

I agree with the idea.

However, the crisis will be with Talib. McCourty, Wilfork and others will be in the same situation as Ninkovich this year.