Should the Pats consider signing Aqib Talib long-term?

[supafly]

What other option do we have?

So now Aqib Talib is a completely irreplaceable player on the New England Patriots?

Good lord....very few players are irreplaceable on a Bill Belichick team. It's certainly possible that Belichick will appreciate what having a more physical CB brings to this defense in terms of options and aggressiveness, but that hardly means that Belichick will be sitting scared in a corner if Talib moves on, or that he'll somehow be forced into overpaying for him.

It will all depend on the monetary demands, but all accounts point to him not accepting anything below market value, and with a lot of key free agents coming up over the next 18 months there will be some tough and unpopular decisions that will need to be made.

There are certainly other talented man coverage CB's that play football in the NFL who may be explored if Belichick feels that they may save money and provide better value. The main goal will likely be to continue the scheme that is working, and believe it or not---other teams are also successful at it even though they don't have the services of the future HOF caliber Talib.

 

[Spiral]

McCourty will get an extensions before Talib

Do you think McCourty will get more money than Talib?

 

[ATippett56]

What other option do we have?

You do realize that Bill Belichick traded Deion Branch, Richard Seymour; Bill Belichick cut Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Willie McGinest; Bill Belichick allowed A$ante $amuel, Wes Welker to depart via unrestricted free agency.

 

[supafly]

Supafly, It seems your strategy is to take things that work, let them go, and bank on the team's scouting process to efficiently replace those things. That sounds fine historically for positions like OL, but for CB that is a ridiculous stance to take.

You are doing nothing but inferring what I "believe." It's been awhile since someone took a comment like that and totally came up with such a strange conclusion regarding a broad overview of my feelings on the team. I never once stated anything even close to what you are claiming...never. You could not have misunderstood my post more if you tried.

All I stated was that it may be an option to try and continue the more aggressive scheme that we've been able to deploy with another capable man coverage cornerback who may end up providing better financial value; after all there are a ton of core key players up for free agency here over the course of the next 18 months. There will be some difficult and unpopular decisions that will need to be made, and big time contracts are NOT going to flow freely like beer at a frat party, at least not here.

It's not like this is a controversial or outside of the box type of thought. Belichick is not going to be forced into overpaying for anyone. No one on the team is irreplaceable. I suppose our main disagreement stems from my thinking that a capable man coverage CB allows us to play a more effective and physical scheme (which is exactly what Reiss' stance is), as opposed to your thinking that our entire defense is somehow revolving around Aqib Talib. It isn't "Aqib Talib" himself....it's the physical man coverage aspect that he plays that allowed everyone to take their respective spot in the secondary.

Believe it or not there are actually other successful man coverage CB's available every single year in the NFL. I think you became so used to seeing poor CB play that you are totally enamored with a "good" corner like Talib, but I also think you are overvaluing him as an individual player 100%.

 

[supafly]

You do realize that Bill Belichick traded Deion Branch, Richard Seymour; Bill Belichick cut Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Willie McGinest; Bill Belichick allowed A$ante $amuel to depart via unrestricted free agency.

And as you are well aware of, we will have some difficult decisions that are approaching us within the next 17-18 months before Feb/March 2015 hits, so the bottom line is that if the price is right and both sides can agree Talib would be great to have here in the future. However, the likelihood of a ton of big time contracts being thrown out in the next 17-18 months aren't too good either.

Obviously the market value of free agents will come into play yet again, as both teams and players will be looking to see whether last year was a one time thing or the new standard, and it's that reasoning alone why I don't believe either side would be interested in exploring a long term deal at this point in time.

 

[ATippett56]

And as you are well aware of, we will have some difficult decisions that are approaching us within the next 17-18 months before Feb/March 2015 hits, so the bottom line is that if the price is right and both sides can agree Talib would be great to have here in the future. However, the likelihood of a ton of big time contracts being thrown out in the next 17-18 months aren't too good either.

Obviously the market value of free agents will come into play yet again, as both teams and players will be looking to see whether last year was a one time thing or the new standard, and it's that reasoning alone why I don't believe either side would be interested in exploring a long term deal at this point in time.

Now all of sudden you have changed your tune.

 

[Marqui]

All I stated was that it may be an option to try and continue the more aggressive scheme that we've been able to deploy with another capable man coverage cornerback who may end up providing better financial value;

It's also an option that they feel Talib is worth a market level contract and give it to him.

 

[supafly]

Do you have the link to that? I didn't see it in the offseason, so I am curious as to the details of the report (everything I read said 1-year offer by Pats due to concerns associated with Talib).

If he got a reasonable multi-year deal and rejected it, then he is going for a major payday and will be gone given the history of every good cornerback on the Pats who chose that path over the past 10 years. Under the traditional approach, the flexibility Talib gives the defense will not be worth losing several players at other positions due to resulting cap limitations. And short of an extension that matches a large multi-year deal, there would be no reason for Talib to agree if that was his mindset in rejecting a proposal.

His 4 years of problems will likely not be completely shaken after 1 solid season. However, if he has a good year some team will pay him. I agree the Hernandez issue will shake the Pats' willingness to roll the dice on a long-term deal. The only way I see him staying is if he feels gratitude at his resurgence, likes his situation on the Pats and is willing to forgo a bigger contract elsewhere.

Per Albert Breer:

Patriots | Made long-term offer to Aqib Talib

Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:06:19 -0700

The New England Patriots made a long-term offer to CB Aqib Talib, but Talib decided to accept their one-year offer. Talib also received interest from three other teams.

Read more: Aqib Talib latest news and rumors

Absolutely, and it's not just some quirk of the Patriots that finding CBs of Talib's caliber is a challenge for them. (Consider: Talib was drafted higher than any Patriots DB has been since Roland James back in 1980.)

Since when does draft placement have any effect whatsoever on future plans for the team? Belichick couldn't care less whether or not we have a capable UDFA back there or a first overall pick. As you are well aware, we've had many "high" draft picks at the position, most recently Devin McCourty who was also in the "20's" much like Aqib Talib.

I don't even see why we're talking about the draft to begin with to be honest with you. We've consistently drafted very poorly with WR's too, and yet have somehow managed to be one of the top offenses in the league for many years now. There's other ways to acquire a player than the draft. There are talented CB's and players at every single position in free agency that come up every year, so if we're not able to reach a deal with Talib it will certainly be a realistic thought to continue our man coverage scheme with another player.

My very basic statement of "it's possible that Belichick will explore continuing the same aggressive system with a player of Talib's caliber who offers a lesser cost and better value," (paraphrasing since I cannot see the sentence on this page currently, but the statement can be found on page 3) was not meant to be nearly as controversial as you and others seem to be taking it. I never once stated that I didn't want Talib, I only offered another reasonable option if it can't be done, which is definitely something that needs to be explored due to the high number of FA's on our team that are coming up in the next 18 months in a flat cap situation.

 

[ahmed]

Should the pats consider signing talib longterm?

Let me think about it.... Hmm yes!

 

[supafly]

Now all of sudden you have changed your tune.

Changed my tune with what? It's one of the reasons why I feel that an overpaid player like Connelly may be cut.

The only thing we disagreed on aside from Connelly was the "terribly poor" cap situation that you foresee for 2014, which I don't even come close to agreeing with, along with your assessment that 2014 is worse for our FA's than any other year.

I didn't "change my tune" from anything. I disagreed with your choice to see things so bleakly. Anyone realizes that it's a valid concern. Where you and I disagree is on the terribly bleak outlook that you feel that the team's cap space situation is in, as I haven't seen one comment from any other poster or reporter who is suggesting anything like that.

You are choosing to be pessimistic, not realistic. The reality is that some difficult choices will have to be made, but that would hold true for any year--especially one where we don't have anything more than a handful of names in FA (2014). When you compare it to 2013 or 2015, the middle year of 2014 is a complete cakewalk.

 

[supafly]

It's also an option that they feel Talib is worth a market level contract and give it to him.

And??? When did I say anything differently? Of course your statement is a reasonable option. I hope it happens to be honest with you.

I never once stated that I didn't want to resign Talib. I'm just suggesting that other capable CBs may be had for better value, since a more physical CB allows us to play a different and more aggressive scheme. Since it's been awhile since we've had that kind of weapon it definitely makes sense to try and work out a pact with Talib, but it also doesn't mean that there are no other options as many are suggesting.

No one player aside from maybe Brady or Wilfork is irreplaceable on the NEP, especially when Belichick is the HC. If Talib's demands cannot be met, they will likely continue the same scheme with another CB who provides better value. Do you disagree?

 

[ATippett56]

Changed my tune with what? It's one of the reasons why I feel that an overpaid player like Connelly may be cut.

You would gut the New England Patriots offense even further to make life even more miserable for Tom Brady.

 

[supafly]

You would gut the New England Patriots offense even further to make life even more miserable for Tom Brady.

If you would see the potential cut or restructure of Dan Connelly as "gutting" the Patriots offense, then I don't think you're going to find too many posters who will find you reasonable or wish to pursue discussions with you in the future.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'm sure Belichick would have loved to sign Talib in the offseason - or pre-season - or now... but for the right price. Belichick must certainly have a price in mind but I'm sure the price that Talib wants is higher.

Talib is clearly willing to risk injury by playing - he's also taking some risks to make some plays - possibly dropping out of his zone to try for an INT - all in the interest of padding stats to pad the paycheck... though he also risks getting burned on big plays by doing so.

But on that account I think he's been doing a decent job of using his instincts while still playing the system by and large.

Assuming they can't find a happy medium in the number, I'm content to let Talib spend this season working hard to earn a big paycheck. Players do best when they have an incentive and that's not a bad thing, as long as he doesn't take too many risks

(Asante Samuel it seemed to me took too many risks to pad his stats, and that ultimately ended his tenure in NE.)

 

[supafly]

I'm sure Belichick would have loved to sign Talib in the offseason - or pre-season - or now... but for the right price. Belichick must certainly have a price in mind but I'm sure the price that Talib wants is higher.

Which is exactly why I suggested that our scheme and some level of success may be continued still with another capable CB, should he end up leaving.

As you said, Belichick will likely offer what he deems as a "fair" offer, but we have no idea as to what Talib is looking for. We can only hope that he accepts it.

The wild card in the scenario is that neither side will have much incentive to reach an agreement until the have a better understanding as to what the market will be in free agency for a CB like Talib, and unfortunately in order to wait and see, both sides are going to take a gamble that may or may not pay off.

 

[ATippett56]

If you would see the potential cut or restructure of Dan Connelly as "gutting" the Patriots offense, then I don't think you're going to find too many posters who will find you reasonable or wish to pursue discussions with you in the future.

Who appointed you general manager of the New England Patriots?

 

[supafly]

If you would see the potential cut or restructure of Dan Connelly as "gutting" the Patriots offense, then I don't think you're going to find too many posters who will find you reasonable or wish to pursue discussions with you in the future.

Who appointed you general manager of the New England Patriots?

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about to be honest with you. I'm not sure what I've ever said about any general manager statements, so you've totally lost me.

If you think that cutting or restructuring Dan Connelly's 3m dollar cap hit next season is going to "gut" the offense of the team, then more power to you.

You've gotten to be insanely negative, pessimistic, and argumentative for no particular reason, so enjoy feeling that way I suppose. You used to be a fairly mediocre poster who is now a rather one-sided one. Unless you're complaining about the team you aren't satisfied.

 

[Marqui]

And??? When did I say anything differently? Of course your statement is a reasonable option. I hope it happens to be honest with you.

I never once stated that I didn't want to resign Talib. I'm just suggesting that other capable CBs may be had for better value, since a more physical CB allows us to play a different and more aggressive scheme. Since it's been awhile since we've had that kind of weapon it definitely makes sense to try and work out a pact with Talib, but it also doesn't mean that there are no other options as many are suggesting.

No one player aside from maybe Brady or Wilfork is irreplaceable on the NEP, especially when Belichick is the HC. If Talib's demands cannot be met, they will likely continue the same scheme with another CB who provides better value. Do you disagree?

Fair enough. But I don't think it's as easy to find a #1 corner as you make it sound. I also think you heavily underestimate continuity, chemistry, and communication in the secondary.

 

[ATippett56]

You've gotten to be insanely negative, pessimistic, and argumentative for no particular reason, so enjoy feeling that way I suppose. You used to be a fairly mediocre poster who is now a rather one-sided one. Unless you're complaining about the team you aren't satisfied.

Aqib Talib is expendable just like Asante Samuel.

The New England Patriots have other alternatives to unrestricted free agency for the cornerback position:

It's called the NFL Draft.

 

[supafly]

Fair enough. But I don't think it's as easy to find a #1 corner as you make it sound. I also think you heavily underestimate continuity, chemistry, and communication in the secondary.

Those are all certainly valid points, Marqui.

For what it's worth, I hope very much that they re-sign Aqib Talib. I am just suggesting that it may be possible to keep some of the continuation that we are concerned about should the negotiations end up failing, nothing more. I believe that it's the "type" of player that was brought in, rather than the specific player, but as you said--the truth may lie in the middle and I may be undervaluing the specific individual. I just don't think that Belichick is going to stray from his usual value system.

It became clear that many here were also overvaluing his services on some level just the same as I may be undervaluing them in your mind, when they started making comments like "what is the other option?"

We would all like to see him stay on for the reasons that you provided, so hopefully they can get it hammered out. One thing that I think will be a bump in the road is the fact that either side will want to budge too much prior to the start of free agency, due to the unknown regarding the market value. Due to that reason, there may be more of a gamble involved due to the wait, as I don't see much chance that anything can be accomplished during this season. Of course I may be incorrect, so only time will tell.