The Vulnerable Five

[ctpatsfan77]

3. D. Aiken – if Cave can prove that he can handle the LS responsibilities it is a no brainer to cut Aiken lose and have the extra roster spot, also Ninkovich’s ability to LS allows us to do so without serious concerns over an in-game injury.

Given how many "guys who can LS" the Pats have had (Ninkovich and D. Thomas spring to mind immediately, and I know there've been others), I think we just have to accept that BB believes strongly in having a dedicated LS.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

O you sound awfully sure of yourself, I'm not saying you're wrong but Cole was cut 3 days ago and only resigned in my opinion because we lost the waiver claim on Cooper, and Belichick values versatility more than any pro coach in sports history so to say he will always have a player dedicated to one thing seems overstated.

You can go over 53 temporarily, as long as you're at 53 at the daily deadline. In other words, they did NOT need to release Cole "in anticipation" of a waiver claim.

They released him because that was the only way they could restructure his contract.

Patriots CB Marquice Cole's Cut and Return: The CBA Made Them Do It | Bleacher Report

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Why is it necessary to denigrate players with the terms 'suck' & 'garbage' & other derogatory terms? While these guys may not possess the necessary skills to compete for the top positions on the team or even any position on the team, they are competing to the best of their ability and that is likely a whole hell of a lot better than most, if not all, of us.

 

[Spiral]

Given their cap space, I think there are a couple of moves ahead that will involve the signing of veteran free agents after week one. A couple of the recent roster moves seem to be seat-fillers until those signings happen. Having another game next Thursday night might push those moves to week 3, but they may move sooner if the guy(s) they want to sign are getting other offers. I think BB may be looking at this as an additional free-agent signing period.

 

[mgteich]

1) Seat-fillers are not necessary. Such players would likely be inactive. There is no requirement to have 53 players on the roster.

2) If we don't use the cap space, it will carry over until next year when it will be needed.

3) I agree that we are likely to sign veterans in the coming two weeks.

Given their cap space, I think there are a couple of moves ahead that will involve the signing of veteran free agents after week one. A couple of the recent roster moves seem to be seat-fillers until those signings happen. Having another game next Thursday night might push those moves to week 3, but they may move sooner if the guy(s) they want to sign are getting other offers. I think BB may be looking at this as an additional free-agent signing period.

 

[cstjohn17]

Mgteich, thank you. Just curious if you have thought about the active roster (45 or 46?) for this week. Week 1 is the rare time where teams in theory can start their best players.

There has been a lot of good discussion on the fringe players but how does our active roster look?

 

[mgteich]

I tend not to worry much about the active roster, since no much depends on day to day health issues.

My guess at the 6 Inactives
-------------------------------
Gronkowksi (still recovering)
Ebner (still recovering)
Dobson (no more than 4 plus Slater are needed or reasonable)
Cave
Barker (could be active if Svitek can't play, or Cave)
Harmon (could be White or Beauharnais)

53 MAN ROSTER
------------------
QB (2) Brady, Mallett
RB (4) Ridley, Vereen, Blount, Bolden
WR (6) Amendola, Thompkins, Dobson, Boyce, Edelman, Slater
TE (4) Sudfeld, Gronkowski, Hoomanawanui, Mulligan
C (2) Wendell, Cave
G (4) Mankins, Connolly, Cannon, Barker
T (3) Vollmer, Solder, Svitek
DE (4) Jones, Ninkovich, Bequette, Buchanan
DT (4) Wilfork, Kelly, Vellano, Francis
ILB(3) Spikes, Fletcher, Beauharnais
OLB(4) Mayo, Hightower, Collins, White
CB (5) Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Cole, Ryan
SS (3) Wilson, Wilson, Ebner
FS (3) McCourty, Gregory, Harmon
ST (2) Gostkowski, Allen

Total players: 53
Created with Pats Picker: Pats Picker 2013

Mgteich, thank you. Just curious if you have thought about the active roster (45 or 46?) for this week. Week 1 is the rare time where teams in theory can start their best players.

There has been a lot of good discussion on the fringe players but how does our active roster look?

 

[Spiral]

I tend not to worry much about the active roster, since no much depends on day to day health issues.

My guess at the 6 Inactives
-------------------------------
Gronkowksi (still recovering)
Ebner (still recovering)
Dobson (no more than 4 plus Slater are needed or reasonable)
Cave
Barker (could be active if Svitek can't play, or Cave)
Harmon (could be White or Beauharnais)

53 MAN ROSTER
------------------
QB (2) Brady, Mallett
RB (4) Ridley, Vereen, Blount, Bolden
WR (6) Amendola, Thompkins, Dobson, Boyce, Edelman, Slater
TE (4) Sudfeld, Gronkowski, Hoomanawanui, Mulligan
C (2) Wendell, Cave
G (4) Mankins, Connolly, Cannon, Barker
T (3) Vollmer, Solder, Svitek
DE (4) Jones, Ninkovich, Bequette, Buchanan
DT (4) Wilfork, Kelly, Vellano, Francis
ILB(3) Spikes, Fletcher, Beauharnais
OLB(4) Mayo, Hightower, Collins, White
CB (5) Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Cole, Ryan
SS (3) Wilson, Wilson, Ebner
FS (3) McCourty, Gregory, Harmon
ST (2) Gostkowski, Allen

Total players: 53
Created with Pats Picker: Pats Picker 2013

I respect your views, but please note that your list of inactives excludes a couple of the "seat fillers."

 

[Brady6]

You can go over 53 temporarily, as long as you're at 53 at the daily deadline. In other words, they did NOT need to release Cole "in anticipation" of a waiver claim.

They released him because that was the only way they could restructure his contract.

Patriots CB Marquice Cole's Cut and Return: The CBA Made Them Do It | Bleacher Report

Bleacher report is filled with speculation, and fiction in my opinion. I enjoy reading it but I don't put a ton of stock in what I read.

 

[mgteich]

True enough.

I would note that I posted that there was no reason for seat fillers. I would be fine with a 50 man roster. All the active players have actual roles this week. In any case, the term "seat fillers" should mean that these players are very upgradable and may be holding a position until veteran help arrives in the next couple of weeks.
=====================

There are three obvious situations in which bottom of the roster players are active.

The first is special teams. Bottom of the roster special teamers often are active and play.

A second situation is injury emergencies. Mulligan fills this role.

The third and the real issue is that there are players who are here, are clearly upgradable, and could be gone if we can find veteran upgrades.

I respect your views, but please note that your list of inactives excludes a couple of the "seat fillers."

 

[Brady6]

Given how many "guys who can LS" the Pats have had (Ninkovich and D. Thomas spring to mind immediately, and I know there've been others), I think we just have to accept that BB believes strongly in having a dedicated LS.

I think he just hasn't found a dual player he is comfortable with yet, Cave may be that player, or not, either way I don't rule it out that he would do a dual player at some point.

 

[Brady6]

I tend not to worry much about the active roster, since no much depends on day to day health issues.

My guess at the 6 Inactives
-------------------------------
Gronkowksi (still recovering)
Ebner (still recovering)
Dobson (no more than 4 plus Slater are needed or reasonable)
Cave
Barker (could be active if Svitek can't play, or Cave)
Harmon (could be White or Beauharnais)

I'd be shocked if Dobson was inactive, I don't think the team shares the same concerns over his preseason performance as many of us do.

For this Sunday I have these players as inactive.

Gronkowski
Ebner
Svitek
Barker
Bolden
White

 

[Oswlek]

O you sound awfully sure of yourself, I'm not saying you're wrong but Cole was cut 3 days ago and only resigned in my opinion because we lost the waiver claim on Cooper, and Belichick values versatility more than any pro coach in sports history so to say he will always have a player dedicated to one thing seems overstated.

Cole was only cut because they needed a day to sort out the waiver claims. NE actually adding incentives to his new contract tells you that they value him a good deal.

Bill has also personally spoken about the importance of a dedicated LS, how if you don't have one it can monkey with the effectiveness of your practice time.

I think he just hasn't found a dual player he is comfortable with yet, Cave may be that player, or not, either way I don't rule it out that he would do a dual player at some point.

Nah, Bill brings in guys with LS backup skills because he wants injury protection.

Trust me, a LS is here to stay and so is Cole.

 

[Brady6]

Cole was only cut because they needed a day to sort out the waiver claims. NE actually adding incentives to his new contract tells you that they value him a good deal.

Bill has also personally spoken about the importance of a dedicated LS, how if you don't have one it can monkey with the effectiveness of your practice time.



Nah, Bill brings in guys with LS backup skills because he wants injury protection.

Trust me, a LS is here to stay and so is Cole.

Honestly I was an advocate for Cole making the roster throughout camp, and the preseason so I am glad he is onboard, Aiken I could really careless if it is him or anyone else, I did not find him to be overly impressive last season, I even felt his offline snaps contributed to a number of missed field goals by Ghost, but if he is here it is not anything I am going to lose sleep over.

As far as them both being secure, I personally feel outside of 4-5 players nobody is above being cut by Bill Belichick, but I will trust your judgment and say I agree that they will both remain, for the record though this list was who is vulnerable, not who’d be cut

 

[Oswlek]

Honestly I was an advocate for Cole making the roster throughout camp, and the preseason so I am glad he is onboard, Aiken I could really careless if it is him or anyone else, I did not find him to be overly impressive last season, I even felt his offline snaps contributed to a number of missed field goals by Ghost, but if he is here it is not anything I am going to lose sleep over.

As far as them both being secure, I personally feel outside of 4-5 players nobody is above being cut by Bill Belichick, but I will trust your judgment and say I agree that they will both remain, for the record though this list was who is vulnerable, not who’d be cut

Hey, you may very well be right about Aiken. I'm not saying he is particularly safe, just his position. If he goes, it won't be for a 5th DT or 10th OL, it'll be for another LS.

 

[Brady6]

Cole was only cut because they needed a day to sort out the waiver claims. NE actually adding incentives to his new contract tells you that they value him a good deal.

I respectfully disagree on his incentives being a positive, as I said in the thread MG opened relating to these incentives being added, I believe after being cut his agent did what he should of done and asked for more money, the team reciprocated by offering additional money but only if he met certain levels, at the end of the day if he is cut or a game day inactive the team invests nothing additional.

 

[Oswlek]

I respectfully disagree on his incentives being a positive, as I said in the thread MG opened relating to these incentives being added, I believe after being cut his agent did what he should of done and asked for more money, the team reciprocated by offering additional money but only if he met certain levels, at the end of the day if he is cut or a game day inactive the team invests nothing additional.

Perhaps, they certainly aren't easy to reach incentives.

That said, the fact that he was re-signed the very next day immediately after NE cut one of what were clear redundant waiver claims makes it likely that it was simply a "give us a day to sort this out" maneuver. With or without any extra money.

 

[Brady6]

Perhaps, they certainly aren't easy to reach incentives.

That said, the fact that he was re-signed the very next day immediately after NE cut one of what were clear redundant waiver claims makes it likely that it was simply a "give us a day to sort this out" maneuver. With or without any extra money.

Take a look at the secondary players, and where they fit best:

Talib – LCB
Dennard – RCB
Arrington – STAR
Cole – ST (STAR)
Ryan – STAR
McCourty – S
Gregory – S
Wilson – S
Harmon – S
Ebner – ST (S)

What I am trying to convey is my reasoning isn’t as much about Cole as it is about the secondary being 10 players but only 2 of them fit best at outside CB, after the 2 players listed you either have to move McCourty from safety or rely on Arrington who is awful at outside CB, or rely on a rookie in Logan Ryan who’s size and speed doesn’t indicate to me anyway that he would be suited to play outside CB. So with that point in mind if you want to bring in some type of depth at the outside CB position who would you cut to clear a space?

In my opinion that was the intent of the waiver claim on Cooper, to add depth at outside CB, I believe they still see the need and if a player becomes available they want Cole would be shown the door again.

 

[Oswlek]

Take a look at the secondary players, and where they fit best:

Talib – LCB
Dennard – RCB
Arrington – STAR
Cole – ST (STAR)
Ryan – STAR
McCourty – S
Gregory – S
Wilson – S
Harmon – S
Ebner – ST (S)

What I am trying to convey is my reasoning isn’t as much about Cole as it is about the secondary being 10 players but only 2 of them fit best at outside CB, after the 2 players listed you either have to move McCourty from safety or rely on Arrington who is awful at outside CB, or rely on a rookie in Logan Ryan who’s size and speed doesn’t indicate to me anyway that he would be suited to play outside CB. So with that point in mind if you want to bring in some type of depth at the outside CB position who would you cut to clear a space?

In my opinion that was the intent of the waiver claim on Cooper, to add depth at outside CB, I believe they still see the need and if a player becomes available they want Cole would be shown the door again.

IIRC, Ryan has similar measurables to Dennard, so I don't see why one would be capable of playing outside while the other can't.

Bill gave Arrington $4mm a year this offseason (despite my objections, mind you) so he clearly thinks Kyle can play out there when necessary.

That said, I don't disagree with you about the secondary (still, regrettably) needing more starter depth, but that player isn't forthcoming at the moment. He could be in trouble next year, but not at the moment.

 

[BelizePats]

How good would Barrett Jones look right now on the Pats instead of taking Harmon in the 3rd?