Available Roster Talent

[Ozymandias]

It's been said that after final cuts you can tell how a team judges its available talent by how active they are in their waiver claims (7 by Jags, Browns each) and by how many of their cut players get picked up on waivers.

Ben Volin reports that none of the Patriots' cuts were picked up by anyone else off of waivers.

Ben Volin @ BenVolin
As you know by now, Tim Tebow, Jake Ballard, Zoltan Mesko and 15 other ex-Patriots all cleared waivers today. None of Pats cuts were claimed

In addition to this, the Patriots were fairly active in signing other teams' castoffs on waivers (4 in total). Do you think this is an issue in terms of available talent on the roster? As in this roster isn't as talented as we think it is.

 

[Ring 6]

It's been said that after final cuts you can tell how a team judges its available talent by how active they are in their waiver claims (7 by Jags, Browns each) and by how many of their cut players get picked up on waivers.

Ben Volin reports that none of the Patriots' cuts were picked up by anyone else off of waivers.

In addition to this, the Patriots were fairly active in signing other teams' castoffs on waivers (4 in total). Do you think this is an issue in terms of available talent on the roster? As in this roster isn't as talented as we think it is.

The bottom of the roster is weak.

 

[jmt57]

Keep in mind that we're comparing bottom of the roster players when comparing who gets picked up by other teams. Perhaps it may indeed not be as talented as we thought it was - but at the same time I don't think the situation is all that dire.



A few weeks ago I heard someone (I think it was Charley Casserly) say that because the Philadelphia Eagles were the best 4th place team in the NFL, that meant that the NFC East was the best division in the NFL.


Ignoring everyone except for the worst was an epic failure in logic by Casserly. I would suggest that while the bottom 25% of the Pats roster may leave a lot to be desired, I would be hesitant to reach conclusions on the talent level of the entire roster based on that. There is always room for improvement; the configuration of the roster continues to be fluid and not etched in stone by the roster cutdown deadline.

 

[BlueThunder]

The bottom of the roster is weak.

Not sure how that differs from any other team's bottom of the roster players.

I have no qualms with the cuts BB made, but I don't have a clue as how the players he picked up will be better than cuts made at the same position earlier by the Pats.

The Browns & Jags must have a strong BOR judging by the number of their cut players picked off waivers. (Edit: sorry...read that line wrong...they picked up 7 players each)

 

[upstater1]

I wouldn't read too much into it. Belichick's stability and tenure at New England allow him to get rid of a lot of players that other coaches/GMs warehouse.

Dowling and Cunningham would still be on other rosters, for instance, because GMs/coaches don't want to admit mistakes as quickly.

This means that the Patriots will tend to have more spots available for young guys (and that's a good thing, because good UDFAs are then encouraged to come to New England where they know they'll get a fair shot).

 

[SuperStang83]

I also think it has something to do with BB, and how rare it is that a player leave the Pats and catches on somewhere else.

 

[Peachhead]

I think part of it is:

When an average-to-below average coach cuts a player, other coaches around the league say to themselves "coach so-and-so is kind of an idiot, I can probably get more out of that guy than coach so-and-so".

But when a coach with the track record and gravitas as BB (who's pretty well known for getting every ounce of potential out of average players) gives up on a guy, other coaches around the league think to themselves "if he thinks the guy isn't good enough I tend take his word for it".

 

[Lamanai]

There are just far too many factors involved to make such a comparison.

For instance, are a teams 'cuts' veterans or UDFA? Did a team send more less of their quality cut players to IR? Is one day after cut down day a good indication, or perhaps some later date? Is a particular team predisposed to churning the bottom of their roster, or are they typically less active? Are players skills individual skills seen as easily transferable to other systems? Was a particular team aggressive in pursuing premium UDFA or did they fill with the dregs. (Hey who are those guys!?!?!?)

You may be able to tell that these are just random questions i'm reeling off, but still, I don't think there is enough info to make any kind of analysis. Perhaps if there were a five or ten year study, comparing it against the league there might be food for thought. JMO.

 

[Mack Herron]

Or maybe the Pats just have weaker personnel at thje bottom of their rooster than some other teams

 

[micronin127]

Claiming a player means claiming the contract terms.

1. Mesko - probably someone wants him cheaper
2. Fells -ditto
3. Ballard - not running well, may get a shot with Giants at some point

Million reasons why some guys get claimed and others don't and sometimes it's a short stint (e.g. Gilbert Pena anyone?) other times it really works out (e.g Kyle Arrington)

Positions 47-53 on the roster are made to be churned.

 

[Miguel]

It's been said that after final cuts you can tell how a team judges its available talent by how active they are in their waiver claims (7 by Jags, Browns each) and by how many of their cut players get picked up on waivers.

Ben Volin reports that none of the Patriots' cuts were picked up by anyone else off of waivers.

In addition to this, the Patriots were fairly active in signing other teams' castoffs on waivers (4 in total). Do you think this is an issue in terms of available talent on the roster? As in this roster isn't as talented as we think it is.

Some of the Patriots talent ended up on IR.

The Pats have 15 players on IR and reached injury settlements with 3 other players.

 

[Ozymandias]

Some of the Patriots talent ended up on IR.

The Pats have 15 players on IR and reached injury settlements with 3 other players.

True, but so did a lot of teams' players.

People are thinking too deeply in the context of the post without delving too much into it. Simply put, the Patriots put in 6 waiver claims and none of the guys they cut were even given any claims on waivers. Differing circumstances, etc.

From a outsider's perspective without factoring other things, it would appear that the guys that they cut weren't looked at as very good to begin with, at least not good enough to put in a waiver claim in case there was any fear that someone else would snatch them up before you do.

In layman terms, the Patriots' cuts weren't hot commodities on the waiver wire.

 

[Ozymandias]

I think part of it is:

When an average-to-below average coach cuts a player, other coaches around the league say to themselves "coach so-and-so is kind of an idiot, I can probably get more out of that guy than coach so-and-so".

But when a coach with the track record and gravitas as BB (who's pretty well known for getting every ounce of potential out of average players) gives up on a guy, other coaches around the league think to themselves "if he thinks the guy isn't good enough I tend take his word for it".

That's also a possibility as well. I'm sure that perception is out there in some form or fashion, but it could also be that the players cut just flat-out weren't viewed as very good to begin with. 0 waiver claims could attest to that.

 

[mgteich]

In the past, the patriots were considered very different because of their incredible depth. The patriots would pride themselves on the strength of the bottom of the rester. That simply is no longer the case.

It is clearly true that we had a poor bottom of the roster. Belichick could only think of 51 worth keeping, and he cut tow of those a day later. And the 49 remaining included such awesome talent as Devlin and Kline.

I don't think that any of this is a surprise. Some have thought that the last cuts would be difficult and agonizing. Others understood that the bottom 6 really didn't matter much. Some might have considered Bolden, Vellano, Ebner and Bauharnais weak. They are not even in the bottom 6. They are in the top 47 (51 less 2 cuts less Kline and Develin comprise the 47).

BOTTOM LINE
The bottom ten players on our roster are very weak. In a sense, that is the case unless the free agent pickups are better.

Not sure how that differs from any other team's bottom of the roster players.

I have no qualms with the cuts BB made, but I don't have a clue as how the players he picked up will be better than cuts made at the same position earlier by the Pats.

The Browns & Jags must have a strong BOR judging by the number of their cut players picked off waivers. (Edit: sorry...read that line wrong...they picked up 7 players each)

 

[Fencer]

I think the logic applies mainly to the young/cheap guys -- rookie contracts and close.

E.g., either we're overvaluing Sims or the rest of league is missing the boat.

 

[mgteich]

How many catches did Sims get before the last preseason game?

I think that we are overvaluing Sims.

I think the logic applies mainly to the young/cheap guys -- rookie contracts and close.

E.g., either we're overvaluing Sims or the rest of league is missing the boat.

 

[Jack Handy]

before I can comment is here a list by team of the number of players cut that were picked up by other teams?

 

[Fencer]

In the past, the patriots were considered very different because of their incredible depth. The patriots would pride themselves on the strength of the bottom of the rester. That simply is no longer the case.

It is clearly true that we had a poor bottom of the roster. Belichick could only think of 51 worth keeping, and he cut tow of those a day later. And the 49 remaining included such awesome talent as Devlin and Kline.

I don't think that any of this is a surprise. Some have thought that the last cuts would be difficult and agonizing. Others understood that the bottom 6 really didn't matter much. Some might have considered Bolden, Vellano, Ebner and Bauharnais weak. They are not even in the bottom 6. They are in the top 47 (51 less 2 cuts less Kline and Develin comprise the 47).

BOTTOM LINE
The bottom ten players on our roster are very weak. In a sense, that is the case unless the free agent pickups are better.

Makes sense. Now let's consider how it happened.

QB -- There are 2. The try for #3 didn't go well.

RB -- There are 2 good young guys. The former #3 (or actually #2), who was older and had gotten concussions, wanted to be paid.

OL -- The former top reserve wanted to get paid. The former 2nd-best reserve got injured. Little was invested in replacements.

TE -- One of the league's best TEs turned out to be a murderer. Two vets had lingering/repeat injury issues. The position did get one of the lucky UDFA hits.

WR -- A mess last year after Welker, this position consumed a lot of resources in being cleaned up this year, including 2 picks, a lucky UDFA hit, a big salary upgrade (to the Welker/Amendola position), and some take-a-flyer guaranteed salary to now-departed vets.

DB -- Problematic last year, this position consumed a couple of picks as well.

LB -- This position was somewhat upgraded via picks.

DL -- This position grabbed the two highest-profile FA signings, Amendola aside, plus a late pick. One of the two, however, went to NFI. Various JAGs were cut.

K/P/LS -- Mesko will punt in this league this year.

Summing up -- it doesn't seem as if the problem was this offseason; there seems to have been some roster rot hanging over from past years that in some cases wasn't so evident at the time. (E.g., who knew that Hernandez was a murderer, or Deaderick and Love weren't useful JAGs?)

 

[Joker]

How many catches did Sims get before the last preseason game?

I think that we are overvaluing Sims.

Sims caught my eye at camp BEFORE the first preseason game. I'm not a binky type of fan either. I've seen enough NFL football to KNOW an NFL wide receiver when I see one and Sims has two of THE most important attributes..good hands and good size. If/when you get the time, LOOK at the plays he had in the preseason and LOOK at the horrific throws by Tebow in particular that never found a consistently wide open Sims...and then look at what happened when the ball got close enough to be caught...he MADE catches. If he was a POS like you seem to be insinuating the past few days, why did they find a spot for him on the P.S.?

 

[mgteich]

I don't think that this issue came all of a sudden. I think that our salaries for the top 25 has been going up, with less available for the bottom. We may have chosen two lesser player because of our salary structure for the bottom half (Hooman and Allen).

BTW, I'm not disagreeing with any of our decisions. I'm just commenting that the bottom of our roster seems to be getting worse over the past few years.

We used to laugh at the teams who were forced to fill the bottom of their rosters with 6ht and 7th rounders, and loads of UDFA's while we hired older veterans. Now, at this point in our cycle, we are the ones with the UDFA's.

As someone pointed out, we are among the youngest teams. Of the bottom ten youngest teams, almost all were rebuilding teams.

Makes sense. Now let's consider how it happened.

QB -- There are 2. The try for #3 didn't go well.

RB -- There are 2 good young guys. The former #3 (or actually #2), who was older and had gotten concussions, wanted to be paid.

OL -- The former top reserve wanted to get paid. The former 2nd-best reserve got injured. Little was invested in replacements.

TE -- One of the league's best TEs turned out to be a murderer. Two vets had lingering/repeat injury issues. The position did get one of the lucky UDFA hits.

WR -- A mess last year after Welker, this position consumed a lot of resources in being cleaned up this year, including 2 picks, a lucky UDFA hit, a big salary upgrade (to the Welker/Amendola position), and some take-a-flyer guaranteed salary to now-departed vets.

DB -- Problematic last year, this position consumed a couple of picks as well.

LB -- This position was somewhat upgraded via picks.

DL -- This position grabbed the two highest-profile FA signings, Amendola aside, plus a late pick. One of the two, however, went to NFI. Various JAGs were cut.

K/P/LS -- Mesko will punt in this league this year.

Summing up -- it doesn't seem as if the problem was this offseason; there seems to have been some roster rot hanging over from past years that in some cases wasn't so evident at the time. (E.g., who knew that Hernandez was a murderer, or Deaderick and Love weren't useful JAGs?)