Should we stop throwing #1's at Tight Ends?

[RayClay]

Just a Philosophy question here.

I am hopeful we sign Graham and Watson, when his time comes. But I'm not confident of either.

We've hit the jackpot with our DL 1st rounders IMO and I think we're prepared to pay them like 1st rounders.

Are we with tight ends?

We're upgrading talent at RB and OL after getting by with JAGS in the past.

We've gotten good value out of Fauria and Wiggins and Thomas looks good.

Can we get almost as much production out of FA's and lower picks and sign them long term? There are blocking TEs available who can make a catch once in a while.

It's worth thinking about.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

At $4mil/annum, what draft spot would Grahambo be drafted to earn equivalent dollars? Sey was a top 6 draftee and got paid that way when he resigned. Grahambo seems to be drawing similar interest as the second Pats first rounder to test the home market.

 

[Digger44]

For me it depends on who is available and at what pick. IMO #24 needs to address the def. #28 could be a BPA pick. If so, it is hard to argue with Greg Olsen if he is available. He was pre-combine but I have not seen any new mocks.

If we got Olsen I am not worried about blocking duties either. I am hoping we switch to a zone scheme and use more of Evans and Mills in the blocking so a TE doesn't have to. The TE in motion towards the middle got very predictable last year. SD ate it up, and said they were looking for it.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Given the fact that TEs generally haven't cost as much in free agency, and that 1st round picks are generally set into salary slots - and that gaining a starter at a more "expensive" position in that salary slot is more efficient, the general answer would be yes.

But in the end with the draft picks we've used its not a huge amount we're not saving - and we all respect BB's tendency to pick the best player available, rather than focus on positional needs or other factors

So I'd say just let BB & SP do whatever they want

 

[RayClay]

At $4mil/annum, what draft spot would Grahambo be drafted to earn equivalent dollars? Sey was a top 6 draftee and got paid that way when he resigned. Grahambo seems to be drawing similar interest as the second Pats first rounder to test the home market.

I'm not really concerned about the money, that's the teams problem.

I am concerned that these 2 players won't want to stick around for what we're willing to pay them. Also, what top draft pick wants to split catches among three guys?

It seems to me other teams, (colts?) get similar production from less costly TE's. I've no time to look up stats now so I'll accept my facts could be wrong.

 

[spacecrime]

Given the fact that TEs generally haven't cost as much in free agency, and that 1st round picks are generally set into salary slots - and that gaining a starter at a more "expensive" position in that salary slot is more efficient, the general answer would be yes.

I don't understand. In FA Graham is worth more than $4 mil a year. How is that cheaper than drafting a guy in the second half of the first round and paying him under $2 mil a year?

 

[JoeSixPat]

I don't understand. In FA Graham is worth more than $4 mil a year. How is that cheaper than drafting a guy in the second half of the first round and paying him under $2 mil a year?

$4 million a year is the Franchise Tag amount for the BEST TEs in the NFL (or at least the Top 5)... (and it remains to be seen if Graham really got offered that amount)

However the comparison that needs to be made is paying an unproven rookie TE taken in the first round $1-2 million, or paying a proven veteran TE at the same amount.

I'd take the proven veteran over the unproven rookie all things being equal.

Now look at someone like a Left Tackle - what's the franchise tag - $9 million or so?

So taking a LT in the 1st round at $1-2 mllion over a veteran makes a whole lot more sense when compared to taking a TE with the same pick, when proven production can be had for the same price.

But again, I'll leave it to BB & SP to take the guy they think is best.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not really concerned about the money, that's the teams problem.

I am concerned that these 2 players won't want to stick around for what we're willing to pay them. Also, what top draft pick wants to split catches among three guys?

It seems to me other teams, (colts?) get similar production from less costly TE's. I've no time to look up stats now so I'll accept my facts could be wrong.

I thought Clark was a first round pick? He's a one dimensional receiver, how is that getting more out of a TE? Does he even play on STs like Grahambo, Ben, and Dave do? Utecht is a more well rounded TE, but I don't know that his stats or usage is even marginally better than what either Grahambo and Ben do. As far as this year's draft, Thomas would be a first round value with his timed speed and college production, it's all in the line-up.

 

[RayClay]

I thought Clark was a first round pick? He's a one dimensional receiver, how is that getting more out of a TE? Does he even play on STs like Grahambo, Ben, and Dave do? Utecht is a more well rounded TE, but I don't know that his stats or usage is even marginally better than what either Grahambo and Ben do. As far as this year's draft, Thomas would be a first round value with his timed speed and college production, it's all in the line-up.

I thought I made a bad example there, but I had to go to class.

Clark was a #24, but Utrecht and Fletcher are both 6th rounders. I'm pretty sure the Colt's run a lot of two tight end offense too.

I've seen teams get more out of their tight ends with low picks and FAs.

I just don't know if the Pats get more utility out of playing 2 high draft picks than one star and 2 or 3 role playing tight ends.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

I'm defintiely not a big fan of the double tightend set. This past season, despite the injuries, ullustrated that they weren't able to exploit matchups on a constistent basis and went to the 3 wr set.

They need a functional offense and a dominant defense.

I say stack the defense with playmakers again. It was pretty good this past year. Imagine some more youth and palyemakers on this defense.

Plus they need a weapon as a punt returner, start getting some production out of that position.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I thought I made a bad example there, but I had to go to class.

Clark was a #24, but Utrecht and Fletcher are both 6th rounders. I'm pretty sure the Colt's run a lot of two tight end offense too.

I've seen teams get more out of their tight ends with low picks and FAs.

I just don't know if the Pats get more utility out of playing 2 high draft picks than one star and 2 or 3 role playing tight ends.

The Colts had to learn how to play football this year when Stokely went down, they moved Clark outside a lot more and brought Utrecht and Fletcher into the offense more often. Let's not get confused by their actually winning a Super Bowl, with what they would have preferred to do with the club they built.

Odd, the discussion this past week has been how Safety is a happening position drawing more first round looks because of all those TEs out there creating mismatches. Other than Tony Gonzalez, where were those TEs when BB took this mess over?

 

[RayClay]

I'm defintiely not a big fan of the double tightend set. This past season, despite the injuries, ullustrated that they weren't able to exploit matchups on a constistent basis and went to the 3 wr set.

They need a functional offense and a dominant defense.

I say stack the defense with playmakers again. It was pretty good this past year. Imagine some more youth and palyemakers on this defense.

Plus they need a weapon as a punt returner, start getting some production out of that position.

I see advantages to it sometimes, but why not a blocking tight end who goes out once in a while?

I can't imagine getting less production out of 2 #1s than by putting them on the field together at tight end.

 

[RayClay]

The Colts had to learn how to play football this year when Stokely went down, they moved Clark outside a lot more and brought Utrecht and Fletcher into the offense more often. Let's not get confused by their actually winning a Super Bowl, with what they would have preferred to do with the club they built.

Odd, the discussion this past week has been how Safety is a happening position drawing more first round looks because of all those TEs out there creating mismatches. Other than Tony Gonzalez, where were those TEs when BB took this mess over?

You're not suggesting one of our tight ends has anywhere near that type of production, are you?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You're not suggesting one of our tight ends has anywhere near that type of production, are you?

Your not suggesting one of our wide receivers has that production are you? Deion has one year topping 70 receptions, Gonzo does it every year. Ben had 49 receptions in 13 games last year, which round are you consistently going to get a TE who can do that, and learn to block like a Graham (who had 38 in 14 games in 03). The TEs on this team play on Special Teams, they block in-line, pass protect, and lead block (Watson is getting better each year), and they create the mismatches BB wants in his offense. The best talent at a position he likes is usually in round one, you can carp about his choices, but oddly enough I think he's rather effective in his job.

 

[Seneschal2]

There are blocking TEs available who can make a catch once in a while.

Yes there are, and I hope that's the route we go to replace Graham.

I just read somewhere that every TE at the Combine spoke with the Pats...and if we draft another, he'll be the 10th TE Belichick has drafted.

For example, a TE like Martrez Milner out of Georgia, whom the Pats seem interested in, is also very close to Watson. He's reputed to be an exc blocker -- but would like to catch more passes. Perhaps he could step in and fill Graham's role as a blocker and on ST, catch a few balls, while being thankful and content that he's earning a decent living. His cost will be minimal, Watson and Thomas would be the primary receiving options, and he'd provide life insurance for both Brady and Maroney in the backfield.

Milner's just one cheaper option -- there's bound to be a couple of other worthy candidates. Bottom line, we don't need another high-priced pass-catching TE for this season. Brady has enough receiving options.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Here's a tight end that hasn't gotten as much press as the top guys but I love his attitude.

It is significant to note that Harris 6-5, 261 was one of the key guys paving the way for Brian Leonard. And he LOVES to block!

“Everybody always asks me about catching my first touchdown pass in college,” he said. “I barely remember that because earlier in that drive Brian Leonard caught a pass in the flat and I cracked back on someone and knocked his helmet off. I got more excited about that than my touchdown catch. If it comes down to it I like blocking better.”

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=24225&pcid=46

He'll probably be available 2nd day too. If we only need a pure blocking tightend, this sounds like the right kind of guy for the job.

 

[signbabybrady]

So I'd say just let BB & SP do whatever they want

hard to argue with that.

 

[pats63]

hard to argue with that.

ain't that the truth,brother

 

[captain stone]

Just a Philosophy question here.


It's worth thinking about.

Question: Should we stop throwing #1s at TEs?

Answer: Absolutely Yes.
Reason: 32 points allowed in the 2nd half.

Unless a top-15 LT or WR is available, I will be very upset if our first 3 picks are not ILB, OLB, DB.

 

[RayClay]

Your not suggesting one of our wide receivers has that production are you? Deion has one year topping 70 receptions, Gonzo does it every year. Ben had 49 receptions in 13 games last year, which round are you consistently going to get a TE who can do that, and learn to block like a Graham (who had 38 in 14 games in 03). The TEs on this team play on Special Teams, they block in-line, pass protect, and lead block (Watson is getting better each year), and they create the mismatches BB wants in his offense. The best talent at a position he likes is usually in round one, you can carp about his choices, but oddly enough I think he's rather effective in his job.

I've watched the Patriots for a long time and I've seen them get as good or better production out of tight ends, some from the 3rd, 5th or 8th round.

They had to trade up to get Graham so that's 2 #1's plus another pick.

Are you saying they've received great value here?

Or are you saying they are infallible like the Pope and we should shut down the messageboards lest someone question a decision.

I think they've had better moments than deciding they needed to spend 2 firsts and a bonus pick for one receiver and a blocker.

Those firsts could have been spent elsewhere, you know.

I don't think one less first round tight end would have caused us to lose in the playoffs.