Defensive End

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Fair enough, but I'd prefer to just get a better player there and stop making excuses for Ninkovich every year.

He does get pushed around at times because he has short arms and struggles to get leverage consistently. And he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it.

I can say it by watching the games and seeing that 95% of the time he gets nowhere near the QB. The few times he does get there he makes the most of it which is nice. But that makes him a mediocre overall player at best.

You obviously haven't been watching football for a while, and know nothing about it. And see, that's the thing is that the guy is quiet, doesn't flash or bring a lot of attention to himself but just quietly does his job and produces. Say what you want but increasing each year by at least two sacks going from 4.0 to 6.5 to 8.0 is a telling stat. And the timely interceptions, during playoff and big games are also the sign of a good player, that he knows what he is doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swikiP1ntUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-VoWUapTxA

 

[Brady6]

He doesn't do that anywhere close to enough though.

He had 8 sacks, 5 forced fumbles, for a strong side DE who also dropped into coverage as an OLB I'd say that it is solid. Don't get me wrong I'd love to see someone like Collins, Bequette, Buchanan come along and be a dominate force who gets to the QB for 12+ sacks.

Is it going to happen unlikely, but I would really, really happy if it did. Till then I'm comfortable with Ninkovich at LE.

 

[Brady6]

To be fair, a lot of those sacks were more the result of Wilfork collapsing the pocket and/or Jones beating his man so badly that the QB basically ran into Ninkovich's arms. Especially in the Pats' system, sacks are rarely the result of one player's actions in a vacuum.

Actually, I'd even argue that Jones would have had a few more sacks if the DE opposite him had been better.

I attributed all 3 of Francis's sacks in the Dolphins game to Jones, I thought that was actually one of Jones best games of the season despite not registering a sack.

I do not argue that Ninkovich benefited from Jones, but I will point out that Ninkovich forced 5 fumbles that may not of occurred if another player was the beneficiary of Jones.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

I do like Michael Buchanan, who was called a "steal" in the draft if it wasn't for character issues. He is very quick and has good speed, and athleticism. He is 6'5, 255lbs, and a hybrid player that can line up both at Defensive End and Outside Linebacker. The guy got a 6.91 three cone time which is excellent, third best in draft amongst defensive linemen. His 22 reps of 225 lbs also shows that he has very good strength to go along with his size. If he does good in camp, and in the preseason, perhaps he can sneak up and play backup behind Chandler Jones, or Rob Ninkovich. Or even start, if they decide to switch Rob Ninkovich back to Outside Linebacker. We'll see exactly how good he pans out. But from what I hear, I like!

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree about Jones because I think he is that type of a player and that good but how can you minimize and take away from Rob's accomplishments like that. Bill Belichick knows the value of Rob and what he means to the defense and has even said it numerous amounts of times, and he has been around and coached some great ones over the years. Not just sacks, but the interceptions and forced fumbles that Rob creates, its him as a player being a good player. I don't understand how people just can't except the fact that he is a really good player on the Patriots defense who overall wasn't very good. And you are really going to put that on Vince Wilfork? If that's the case, then how come Jermaine Cunningham and guys before him outside of Andre Carter and Mark Anderson had a hard time getting 5 sacks let alone 8? What Vince didn't collapse the pocket for them? Give me a break, this guy is a good football player.

I'm not minimizing Ninkovich. I think he's a good player, and if he's starting for you, then that's fine. I think he's a plus as a situational player, and about league-average as a starter. If he's one of the five best players on your defense, then your defense isn't very good.

What I am saying is that it's foolish to think that the case for or against him begins and ends with his 8 sacks. We all watched Tully Banta-Cain get 10 a couple of years ago, and nobody's going to argue that he's a good football player.

Again, Ninkovich is a good player. If he's starting for you, it's not a glaring weakness like it is if someone like Cunningham is starting. But he's also not the kind of player who opponents draw up gameplans to try to stop. Opposing offenses aren't going to worry much about keeping RBs in to block him, or chipping him with TEs, etc. If the Pats think they have a chance to upgrade to a guy like that, they should absolutely try to, because players like that (which is what I think Jones is) are a lot more valuable than players like Ninkovich.

I don't have a problem with Ninkovich as a starter, but I'd still love to see an upgrade, and I think that upgrading would solve a lot of the defense's problems.

 

[ATippett56]

Again, Ninkovich is a good player. If he's starting for you, it's not a glaring weakness like it is if someone like Cunningham is starting. But he's also not the kind of player who opponents draw up gameplans to try to stop. Opposing offenses aren't going to worry much about keeping RBs in to block him, or chipping him with TEs, etc. If the Pats think they have a chance to upgrade to a guy like that, they should absolutely try to, because players like that (which is what I think Jones is) are a lot more valuable than players like Ninkovich.

I don't have a problem with Ninkovich as a starter, but I'd still love to see an upgrade, and I think that upgrading would solve a lot of the defense's problems.

If anything, you can't complain about the lack of competition at the defensive end position during the 2013 New England Patriots training camp.

 

[Ring 6]

Benard and Bequette seem to be doing well so far. It is difficult not see them as ahead of Cunningham and Francis in the race for backup DE roster spots. Of course, Cunningham could get a swing DL spot or a DT spot.

Unless we pick up a DT backup, I'd put Francis at the end of the depth chart as of now.

Of course, one advantage of Francis is that he could be considered a developmental players, since he signed through 2014 and would be an RFA in 2015. We could actually wait a bit as he develops.

How is it difficult to not see Bequette ahead of the guy who was way ahead of him last year? Or Benard ahead of anyone?

 

[Ring 6]

To be fair, a lot of those sacks were more the result of Wilfork collapsing the pocket and/or Jones beating his man so badly that the QB basically ran into Ninkovich's arms. Especially in the Pats' system, sacks are rarely the result of one player's actions in a vacuum.

Actually, I'd even argue that Jones would have had a few more sacks if the DE opposite him had been better.

Great points. The real problem with Ninkovich is outside of those sacks, which often we a flushed QB running to him, he generate a miniscule amount of pressure.
We really want the DE to be the guy who drives the QB out of the pocket, not the once who is battling around los and makes plays when the QB runs away from another rusher.

 

[Ring 6]

It does say a lot, it says that no fan should want some else on the depth chart behind him to beat him out.

I want every backup to beat out every starter (theoretically) because it means we get better.

And it also says that what he is doing is fine, but that others around him need to step it up as well. That's why I believe that a healthy and second year Chandler Jones will reach that elite pass rushing status and allow pressure to flow off of Rob Ninkovich and back to him to help create for others on the defensive line.

If you measure a DE solely by sacks you are saying making 1 play every 2 games is a good thing. I disagree. Judging defenders from a stat sheet is fatally flawed.

 

[patchick]

Fair enough, but I'd prefer to just get a better player there and stop making excuses for Ninkovich every year.

Personally, I don't feel any need to "make excuses" for a player who has put up these numbers over the past two seasons:

132 tackles, 14.5 Sck, 5 PDef, 2 Int, 5 FF -- and 0 games missed

For perspective, that stands up to any 2-year period in Mike Vrabel's career except for 2007, when the constant passing of teams playing catch-up make for a sack fest.

Ninkovich is not an elite pass rusher, but he is an unusually COMPLETE player who does the little things right, and an important locker room leader as well. I would be thrilled if a young player beat him out, not because Ninkovich is weak but because it would mean that the young player must be a heck of a stud.

 

[everlong]

Nink is never going to be Willie McGinist and win one on one battles consistently to make huge plays. He is however a lot like Vrabel and can do everything well and he does have some impact plays at big times. I bet Bill, short of somebody offering him stupid FA dollars, values him much more than most of the fan base and would love to keep him on the team as long as his body holds out.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I do like Michael Buchanan, who was called a "steal" in the draft if it wasn't for character issues. He is very quick and has good speed, and athleticism. He is 6'5, 255lbs, and a hybrid player that can line up both at Defensive End and Outside Linebacker. The guy got a 6.91 three cone time which is excellent, third best in draft amongst defensive linemen. His 22 reps of 225 lbs also shows that he has very good strength to go along with his size. If he does good in camp, and in the preseason, perhaps he can sneak up and play backup behind Chandler Jones, or Rob Ninkovich. Or even start, if they decide to switch Rob Ninkovich back to Outside Linebacker. We'll see exactly how good he pans out. But from what I hear, I like!

LOL. Whoa, let's hope he is as good as you say. But I haven't heard much in training camp about Buchanan yet. Jones I expect to have the 'breakout' year with a full set of minicamp/training camp to get him acclimated to the rigors of the NFL.

 

[jmt57]

There is plenty of still photo film breakdown in this article that looks at Buchanan as a 4-3 Defensive End, a 3-4 Defensive End, and a 3-4 Outside Linebacker:

From Illinois to the Patriots: The Utilization of Rookie Michael Buchanan | NEPatriotsDraft.com | Oliver Thomas


If he can resemble the productivity of his 2011 campaign, where he notched 64 total tackles, 13.5 tackles for loss and 7.5 sacks, the decision will be an easy one. If he can showcase his 4.78 40- time and 6.91 three-cone time at game speed, the decision will be even easier.

Buchanan’s quick first step, explosion off the line, effective swim move and downhill speed make him a very dangerous “Bandit.” And seeing how the experienced starter is carved in a long, lanky mold, that’s likely where he’s best suited to play in the NFL right now.

That being said, college offensive linemen aren’t NFL offensive linemen. They’re not as athletic, they’re not as big and they’re not as strong. So for Buchanan, it will be about more than beating his man to the corner or redirecting through the guards; it will be about beating his man in the leverage battle and taking better paths to the ball-carrier.

Buchanan is long-armed. He displays good form and second effort. He’s not afraid to get physical, either. Yet due to his thin frame, the common belief is that he will need to add some girth in order to see extensive reps at defensive end.

There’s a lot to like about his versatility. He isn’t a stranger to setting up in three-man fronts, four-man fronts or off the line. That dexterity saw Buchanan practice with both defensive ends and linebackers through the beginning days of Patriots camp.

Nevertheless, he’s striving to find his niche. And as a seventh-round rookie, he’ll play wherever he’s asked to. In the NFL game, Buchanan may not be as much of a volatile presence in finishing plays. But at least he’s familiar with finishing plays.

And he’s familiar in doing so from a variety of positions.​

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Benard and Bequette seem to be doing well so far. It is difficult not see them as ahead of Cunningham and Francis in the race for backup DE roster spots. Of course, Cunningham could get a swing DL spot or a DT spot.

Unless we pick up a DT backup, I'd put Francis at the end of the depth chart as of now.

Of course, one advantage of Francis is that he could be considered a developmental players, since he signed through 2014 and would be an RFA in 2015. We could actually wait a bit as he develops.

Buchanon is a 7th rounder, Benard has played in 4 games since 2011, Bequette has yet to record an NFL tackle, Cunningham has done little in his three years the NFL. It's day three of training camp, too early to definitively know anything. What evidence do you have to say Francis at the end of the depth chart?

 

[mgteich]

I guess I should have labelled the thread "After Jones and Ninkovich". The battle is for backup spots. We don't know how many there will be. What we do know is that Bequette is have a reasonable camp (making him almost a lock) and Benard has also had a good camp.

I think that Buchanan has a lot to prove, but he will likely be on someone's 53 before the season ends.

If I were Cunningham or Francis, I would be looking over my shoulder. IMHO, there are currently 5 DE's ahead of them on the depth chart; and we are likely to keep 4-5 DE's on the 53 man roster.

========

DE - Jones, Ninkovich, Benard, Bequette, (Buchanan if we have 5)
outside looking in: Francis, Cunningham
==================

QUESTION
Have Cunningham and/or Francis been getting reps at DT? I does seem that we might carry only 4 DE's, and then 4DT's and one swing DL.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm not minimizing Ninkovich. I think he's a good player, and if he's starting for you, then that's fine. I think he's a plus as a situational player, and about league-average as a starter. If he's one of the five best players on your defense, then your defense isn't very good.

What I am saying is that it's foolish to think that the case for or against him begins and ends with his 8 sacks. We all watched Tully Banta-Cain get 10 a couple of years ago, and nobody's going to argue that he's a good football player.

Again, Ninkovich is a good player. If he's starting for you, it's not a glaring weakness like it is if someone like Cunningham is starting. But he's also not the kind of player who opponents draw up gameplans to try to stop. Opposing offenses aren't going to worry much about keeping RBs in to block him, or chipping him with TEs, etc. If the Pats think they have a chance to upgrade to a guy like that, they should absolutely try to, because players like that (which is what I think Jones is) are a lot more valuable than players like Ninkovich.

I don't have a problem with Ninkovich as a starter, but I'd still love to see an upgrade, and I think that upgrading would solve a lot of the defense's problems.

I don't understand why so many people stick so hard to the status quo in the face of an argument being that an upgrade would be good. Nobody is crapping on Ninkovich. What people, for the most part, are saying is that he's a solid player who has made the most of his opportunities, but is ideally a guy that you would like to be a rotational player. I'm all for someone leapfrogging Ninkovich if they could provide an extra boost to the pass rush while not being a liability vs. outside runs. I'd have no problem with an upgrade anywhere else on the team, either.

 

[Sicilian]

DE - Jones, Ninkovich, Benard, Bequette, (Buchanan if we have 5)
outside looking in: Francis, Cunningham

I don't see how Bequette is ahead of Francis, given that Francis beat him out for playing time all of last year, and I've heard nothing in camp reports to believe the roles have reversed.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, an upgrade to Ninkovich would be nice. An upgrade to Jones would be nice. Obviously, this is true. And we would all like to see bring in a stud DE. Until the trade is announced, the starters are Jones and Ninkovich. And sure, someone now on the roster could move up. This is seriously unlikely and not what we are discussing on this thread.

The reason that I started the thread was to discuss the backup 2-3 defensive end positions, and the intense competition for those roster spots. Ninkovich is a lock for a roster spot, unless he is traded or injured, so I ignore those possibilities.
===========================
PICK 2-3
Benard, Bequette, Francis, Buchanan, Cunningham, Vega

This is easily the toughest competition on the team for roster spots. I'm sure all six are, or have been, on someone's projected roster.

I don't understand why so many people stick so hard to the status quo in the face of an argument being that an upgrade would be good. Nobody is crapping on Ninkovich. What people, for the most part, are saying is that he's a solid player who has made the most of his opportunities, but is ideally a guy that you would like to be a rotational player. I'm all for someone leapfrogging Ninkovich if they could provide an extra boost to the pass rush while not being a liability vs. outside runs. I'd have no problem with an upgrade anywhere else on the team, either.

 

[VrabelJr]

Honestly I think Cunningham's days are numbered. When I look at Cunningham's versatility I see two positions: RDE and 3-tech DT in sub packages. He's probably the 3rd or 4th best RDE and the 2nd or 3rd best 3 tech DT. I think he's fighting with Benard and Francis, unfortunately I see him losing to both of them.

 

[Ring 6]

Honestly I think Cunningham's days are numbered. When I look at Cunningham's versatility I see two positions: RDE and 3-tech DT in sub packages. He's probably the 3rd or 4th best RDE and the 2nd or 3rd best 3 tech DT. I think he's fighting with Benard and Francis, unfortunately I see him losing to both of them.

He played LDE last year. Why would you not play him there?
Who are 2 or 3 better RDEs?