Official 2013 Patriots Training Camp Thread

[ATippett56]

DEFENSE

RETAINED: Talib, Arrington, Cole
NOT RETAINED: Love, Deaderick, Chung
NEW FA's: Kelly, Armstead, Wilson, (Benard)

Not Retained:

Ron Brace
Brandon Deaderick
Kyle Love
Myron Pryor
Trevor Scott
Tracy White
Patrick Chung
Derrick Martin
Malcolm Williams

New England Patriots Salary Cap 2012

Defensive players that should have been cut or not re-signed:

Steve Gregory
Marquice Cole
Niko Koutouvides

Unrestricted free agents that should have been signed:

Kenny Phillips

 

[mgteich]

1) How many reps did Underwood have in 2011? How many did Branch have in 2012?

2) You can be glad that Welker and Lloyd are not here. We would have a much better chance at the Super Bowl with both here along with their production.

3) Rookie wide receivers are a crapshoot. Even the best often don't do well in their rookie years. OK, maybe Dobson will have 550 yards as you say, maybe not. The offensive line is the best in the league. It will need to be, given the quality of our receivers. Good defense will go after Brady, again and again.

4) What a strange idea. Welker will be as good this year as last, and maybe diminish some in 2014. And your conclusion is that it is time to move on and not have Welker as our best receiver. Well, you have your wish. Our best receiver is considerably worse than Welker.

Some thoughts:

1) Branch is a total non-factor. Saying anyone "replaced" him is like discussing who replaced Tiquan Underwood in 2012. If you must insert Jenkins onto the team, he is replacing Lloyd. So, you end up with Amendola replacing Welker, Jenkins for Lloyd and a bag of balls taking the place of Branch. Not ideal, but not the same breakdown as you have.

2) Let's take a moment of silent gratitude that Lloyd is no longer a NE Patriot.

3) Why is it unlikely that one of the rookies are productive? Sure, it might be too much to ask that both are good, but one? That is hardly unreasonable. And what does "productive" mean? NE's offense can still be quite good even if the best rookie WR ends up with 40 catches for 550 yards.

4) Cutting a guy "early" means he will still be good this year and will drop off next year. I'm not even sure I buy that for Wes, he'll still be a good receiver in 2015, IMO. But I still have no problem seeing him go. It was time to move on, if not entirely, at least from having him be the top WR on the team.

5) Let's take another moment of thanks that Brandon Lloyd is no longer a NE Patriot.



Unless this is a profoundly terrible draft class, you can take it to the bank that one player will earn a starting spot by November and another will have a regular role even earlier than that.

 

[JackBauer]

Unrestricted free agents that should have been signed:

Kenny Phillips

I wanted Phillips but at present that's not looking like a missed opportunity.

Eagles safety Kenny Phillips grounded by knee troubles

 

[ATippett56]

Some thoughts:

4) Cutting a guy "early" means he will still be good this year and will drop off next year. I'm not even sure I buy that for Wes, he'll still be a good receiver in 2015, IMO. But I still have no problem seeing him go. It was time to move on, if not entirely, at least from having him be the top WR on the team.

I have a big problem seeing him go. As we all witnessed last season, Edelman is not the answer, who incidentally is the only wide receiver retained from last season's 53 man roster.

 

[ATippett56]

3) Why is it unlikely that one of the rookies are productive? Sure, it might be too much to ask that both are good, but one? That is hardly unreasonable. And what does "productive" mean? NE's offense can still be quite good even if the best rookie WR ends up with 40 catches for 550 yards.

The best rookie performance for a wide receiver during the Bill Belichick era for the New England Patriots was 489 receiving yards by Deion Branch.

Deion Branch NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[fnordcircle]

Ron Brace - Dead weight who never proved he was worth his draft pick.
Brandon Deaderick - Real bummer but supposedly this was a locker room presence move.
Kyle Love - Another bummer (I liked Love) but Diabeetus.
Myron Pryor - Never proved it.
Trevor Scott - Had some moments, wish he could have stayed.
Tracy White - Decent special teams, liability on defensive snaps.
Patrick Chung - Will not be missed.
Derrick Martin - No real impact.
Malcolm Williams - Thought he could do well on special teams, didn't really pan out.

Defensive players that should have been cut or not re-signed:

Steve Gregory - Cut for what reason? So we can give more snaps to young/unproven players? He's a good nickel/dime option backing up DMC. He was out of position at SS and we won't have to worry about that now with Adrian starting and Tavon backing him up.
Marquice Cole - Gets too much flack for not being able to cover Bolden. As a nickel or dime option he was solid.
Niko Koutouvides - Not too impressed with Niko's special teams.

Here's the kicker, these guys could all be cut as things stand.

If we could do it over again I'd try to find a way to keep Deaderick and Scott. But these aren't guys who would be getting double digit snaps every game either way.

I'm ok with what they've done on defense, overall. The moves on the DL are a bummer but we're putting our hopes in Kelley.

 

[Deus Irae]

1) How many reps did Underwood have in 2011? How many did Branch have in 2012?

2) You can be glad that Welker and Lloyd are not here. We would have a much better chance at the Super Bowl with both here along with their production.

3) Rookie wide receivers are a crapshoot. Even the best often don't do well in their rookie years. OK, maybe Dobson will have 550 yards as you say, maybe not. The offensive line is the best in the league. It will need to be, given the quality of our receivers. Good defense will go after Brady, again and again.

4) What a strange idea. Welker will be as good this year as last, and maybe diminish some in 2014. And your conclusion is that it is time to move on and not have Welker as our best receiver. Well, you have your wish. Our best receiver is considerably worse than Welker.

Oswlek seems to find the grapes to be a bit sour.

 

[ATippett56]

3) Why is it unlikely that one of the rookies are productive? Sure, it might be too much to ask that both are good, but one? That is hardly unreasonable. And what does "productive" mean? NE's offense can still be quite good even if the best rookie WR ends up with 40 catches for 550 yards.

Tell that to Jeremy Ebert and Greg Salas, who incidentally was not a rookie, last season.

 

[Oswlek]

1) How many reps did Underwood have in 2011? How many did Branch have in 2012?

2) You can be glad that Welker and Lloyd are not here. We would have a much better chance at the Super Bowl with both here along with their production.

3) Rookie wide receivers are a crapshoot. Even the best often don't do well in their rookie years. OK, maybe Dobson will have 550 yards as you say, maybe not. The offensive line is the best in the league. It will need to be, given the quality of our receivers. Good defense will go after Brady, again and again.

4) What a strange idea. Welker will be as good this year as last, and maybe diminish some in 2014. And your conclusion is that it is time to move on and not have Welker as our best receiver. Well, you have your wish. Our best receiver is considerably worse than Welker.

We're not going to agree on this one, mg.

1) Pedantic. Branch's snap count is a big reason why we are seeing the rebuild. How about we look at production? 145 yards and a sub 10 ypc? Yeah, we're talking Underwood territory here.

2) I'm not glad Wes isn't here, I just understand where they are coming from. I am glad Lloyd is gone because I honestly believe he was a net negative player. Worst YAC receiver I've ever seen, drops too easy catches, gets pushed around easily, never got in tune with Brady even though they were clearly forcing him the ball at times.

3) Unknown =/ poor quality.

4) You are being intentionally obtuse on this one. No need to spin my words into statements I didn't make.

 

[Oswlek]

Tell that to Jeremy Ebert and Greg Salas, who incidentally was not a rookie, last season.

A 7th rounder and a cut from another team? Not seeing the comparable here, sorry.

 

[Oswlek]

Oswlek seems to find the grapes to be a bit sour.

You are too smart for this garbage, Deus. I thought we went back far enough to avoid this kind of childish response, sad to see I was off base.

 

[ATippett56]

A 7th rounder and a cut from another team? Not seeing the comparable here, sorry.

Salas was not a cut from another team.

September 1, 2012: Acquired WR Greg Salas from St. Louis for an undisclosed draft pick.

New England Patriots 2012 Team Transactions - Trades, Injured List, Free Agents, and Signings - ESPN

You can't even get your facts straight.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are too smart for this garbage, Deus. I thought were went back far enough to avoid this kind of childish response, sad to see I was off base.

What's the problem with someone saying that you seem to have a small case of the sour grapes, given your positions on Lloyd and Welker? How is that childish, in your eyes?

 

[BadMoFo]

So conditioning tests, are those done today or tomorrow? Haven't heard of anything, other than Leon Washington's tweet saying he beasted it.

 

[Oswlek]

The best rookie performance for a wide receiver during the Bill Belichick era for the New England Patriots was 489 receiving yards by Deion Branch.

Deion Branch NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I know. That was pretty much where I got my mythical numbers from.

I have a big problem seeing him go. As we all witnessed last season, Edelman is not the answer, who incidentally is the only wide receiver retained from last season's 53 man roster.

The bold is the key part of your statement. 2002 secondary, 2009 TEs, 2006 WRs - NE isn't afraid to blow up a position if they feel it needs a serious overhaul. And usually with great success.

Since Deus and mg feel the need to spin my statements into bare resemblances, I'll be perfectly clear. I would love to have Wes back. When I said that I expected him to go after the AFCCG it was largely because I thought that he'd be asking for $6-7mm a year and that NE would (rightly, IMO) assess him in the $4mm range as a top level #2. That, in conjunction with some festering animosity, would create an irreparable rift.

But, again, expecting him to go is not the same thing as wanting him to. Nor does it mean I feel any need to downplay his performance as a Patriot.

 

[Oswlek]

What's the problem with someone saying that you seem to have a small case of the sour grapes, given your positions on Lloyd and Welker? How is that childish, in your eyes?

The fact that it is a sweeping generalization and entirely inaccurate might have something to do with it. :confused4:

 

[ATippett56]

The bold is the key part of your statement. 2002 secondary, 2009 TEs, 2006 WRs - NE isn't afraid to blow up a position if they feel it needs a serious overhaul. And usually with great success.

The 2006 New England Patriots wide receiver overhaul was a massive failure as evident by the 2007 New England Patriots transactions at the aforementioned position.

 

[Oswlek]

Salas was not a cut from another team.

September 1, 2012: Acquired WR Greg Salas from St. Louis for an undisclosed draft pick.

New England Patriots 2012 Team Transactions - Trades, Injured List, Free Agents, and Signings - ESPN

You can't even get your facts straight.

Wow. I am so ****ing stupid.

Aside from that, though, how does the fact that a late round pick was involved in Salas' acquisition materially change my point? Can't we disagree without personal assaults?

 

[Oswlek]

The 2006 New England Patriots wide receiver overhaul was a massive failure as evident by the 2007 New England Patriots transactions at the aforementioned position.

You might want to read my original post again. The years mentioned were the precipitating seasons, not the rebuild.

 

[Deus Irae]

The fact that it is a sweeping generalization and entirely inaccurate might have something to do with it. :confused4:

Sour grapes is where you want something until you don't get it, and then you start finding reasons to be 'happy' that you don't have it. Your position on Welker is pretty much textbook sour grapes. If the notion sour grapes is too harsh for you (why that would be, I have no idea, but...), feel free to go with "awfully quick to rationalize and justify".

Your position on Lloyd appears bizarre on its face, but seems to be based upon some level of internally consistent guesswork, so there's no real need to address it with any detail.