Is it time to call Brandon Lloyd yet ?

[Pats0204]

What other receivers available are realistically going to be more productive then Lloyd?

Laurent Robinson
Steve Breaston
Randy Moss
Braylon Edwards
Deion Branch
Chaz Schilens
Early Doucet
Brandon Stokley
Austin Collie
Derek Hagan
Chad Johnson
Jabar Gaffney
Roscoe Parrish (PR)
Brandon Banks (KR/PR)
Mike Sims-Walker
Sammie Stroughter
Jason Hill
Ruvell Martin
Patrick Turner
Seyi Ajirotutu
Greg Camarillo (PR)
Legedu Naanee
Adrian Arrington
Michael Clayton
Demetrius Williams
Maurice Stovall (TE)
Jerheme Urban
Jaymar Johnson
Quan Cosby (PR/KR)
Jarett Dilliard
Naaman Roosevelt
Lance Long
Joe Hastings

Kidding............kinda.

 

[supafly]

What other receivers available are realistically going to be more productive then Lloyd?

No other receivers available at this specific moment are likely to see 130 targets from Tom Brady if/when we'd sign them, but that can obviously change at any given moment. That's the stat that I look at the most--the 130 targets. For all we know, there may be someone on the roster now who can produce 72 catches if they're thrown at 130 times, but I assume that you're talking about a player from another team or free agent.

The main problem is that they'd likely have to have had at least some kind of experience in a system that is equal to ours, especially since we'd be looking at roster cuts/camp casualties.

Common sense tells us that there probably aren't going to be many receivers available who fit that criteria and that's why we continue to hear of names such as Deion Branch, Donte Stallworth, and Jabar Gaffney throughout the summer and as the season approaches. It isn't realistic to expect another player who's been cut in August to come here and produce very much.

 

[BB4PRez]

I have no problem is Belichick chooses to bring in Llyod at some point for insurance/depth, but I don't think they'd be able to agree on his value myself.

I'd see Llyod as nothing better than a good option for WR3 at best, so that's where it gets tricky. Keep in mind our WR3 last season had a total of 21 catches. Unless Llyod is willing to take something around 1 million dollars (and I doubt he is at this point), I don't know if we have as much of a need for him as some here think.

After all, Llyod was really nothing more than an upgrade to the possession receiver role filled by Deion Branch in 2011 when he had 50 receptions. The major difference was that Llyod caught another 20 or so balls last year because he had 130 overall targets.

Would I be happy to see Llyod signed as a depth guy in a more limited role? Sure. I'd love to see him as a replacement for what Branch has been the past couple of yrs. My guess is that he's looking for something more however.

I can agree on with this. I expect the money will be the issue. Although to me part of the Patriot Way is the Pats can pay match other teams for a guy in this range of ability. It was widely reported that the Pats tried to get Lloyd to take a pay cut before cutting him. Lloyd is an upgrade to what they have right now. I hope the young guys will pass him, but there is no guarantee they will and they certainly won't if they don't get on the field.

 

[Snake Eyes]

This is stupid and it seems like once again, people just don't get it. Yes, the man got 900 yards last year, so what? He didn't come in and provide for us like what we thought he would and should have. Numbers in production to does equal clutch and winning games. Thank you David Givens for those tough catches without the great numbers! We didn't ask Brandon Lloyd to come in and be Randy Moss, but we did ask him to come in and be a presence that would at least threaten the other side of the field opposite of Wes Welker and down deep and he didn't do so. He never gave any effort after the catch UNLESS it was open field in front of him, made more effort on easier passes to catch then he had to and never gave teams a reason to respect us deep. So opposing defenses clogged the middle of the field and beat us because of it. And he never really looked like he completely picked the system up. People want to criticize Bill for the FA and draft? How many rings has he won? How many super-bowl appearances has he been to? What was his record when Tom went down in 2008? How many Conference Championship games have he won and appeared in? How many star receivers helped us win those Championships? (Moss and Welker were stars but we didn't win it all). Remember, when we brought in David Patten from Cleveland back in 2000 I believe, not having the same attributes, accolades and bragging rights that Brandon Lloyd had coming in, but has done more and worked better with Tom and our system then Lloyd certainly has. So how would we know what Donald Jones or Michael Jenkins could bring? Or what about Bill drafting David Givens and Deion Branch in 2002 and him being criticized for not drafting Ashlie Lelie and Donte Stallworth and Javon Walker.. popular picks that year, but then David and Deion contribute immediately, helping the team win two super-bowls the following year and year after that. They were a perfect fit for the offensive system, philosophy and Tom. So why bring back Brandon Lloyd? And what is the deal with not giving these kids a chance?

- Aaron Dobson - 6'3, over 200lbs can run crisp routes, good technique, has very good speed for his size, great reach, work ethic, athletic ability, and hands of gold. Not only that but he played in a complex college offensive system and is a smart player that can pick up the offensive system in NE. And he is from Marshall! lol hasn't failed us yet .. Moss, Troy Brown. He gives us more and offers more then Lloyd and I believe the kids wants it more, wants to play in the NFL at a high level. Those are the dangerous ones, the young, talented and hungry.

- Josh Boyce - Has nice size, speed, quickness, elusiveness, tough to bring down also good with the routes, solid hands and played in a complex collegiate offense as well. He is also versatile, running short, intermediate routes or deep. We can line him up any where on the field. When is the last time we've had that?

And you still have slot ace Danny Amendola who is just such a great football player all around when he is healthy. He made Sam Bradford look soo good at times last season which is why teams were bidding for him once he became a FA. And did I forget we still have Aaron Hernandez? Another elite receiving talent whether it be WR or TE...

So instead of opposing defenses lining up to stop Wes in the slot, and shut down Hernandez because Brandon Lloyd was none existent and didn't provide much of a threat, they now have to worry about a younger faster and more explosive Danny Amendola who can not only line up in slot but beat them deep, Aaron Dobson who's a young, big athletic kid who can run down field and use his size to also dig underneath and intermediate routes and jack of trades Josh Boyce who they don't know what he is going to do because he can do it all. We are younger, faster, stronger, more athletic at the position now and deeper then last year with a wider variety of flavors and threats.. more for defenses to defend. And we have coach Brian Daboll back to add additional tutoring from McDaniels, Brady, and Bellicheck.

Will Boyce and Dobson realistically be more productive than Lloyd would be? I don't care that he wasn't what we wanted him to be, he is the best option at the moment.

It usually takes receivers a few years to adapt to the NFL game, and the Pats offense is more difficult to pick up than most teams, the idea that Dobson and Boyce are going to be more productive than Lloyd runs contrary to previous experience the Pats have had with rookie receivers.

 

[Snake Eyes]

No other receivers available at this specific moment are likely to see 130 targets from Tom Brady if/when we'd sign them, but that can obviously change at any given moment. That's the stat that I look at the most--the 130 targets. For all we know, there may be someone on the roster now who can produce 72 catches if they're thrown at 130 times, but I assume that you're talking about a player from another team or free agent.

The main problem is that they'd likely have to have had at least some kind of experience in a system that is equal to ours, especially since we'd be looking at roster cuts/camp casualties.

Common sense tells us that there probably aren't going to be many receivers available who fit that criteria and that's why we continue to hear of names such as Deion Branch, Donte Stallworth, and Jabar Gaffney throughout the summer and as the season approaches. It isn't realistic to expect another player who's been cut in August to come here and produce very much.

Yes, which means Lloyd will likely be more productive, and that's what gives us the best chance of winning. People crap on Lloyd because he goes down so easily but they also bemoan the fact that Gronk, who never goes down easily, is often hurt. You can't have it both ways, Lloyd played every game last season and he knows the system, I doubt many FA receivers can say that, and the rookies certainly can't.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Yes, which means Lloyd will likely be more productive, and that's what gives us the best chance of winning. People crap on Lloyd because he goes down so easily but they also bemoan the fact that Gronk, who never goes down easily, is often hurt. You can't have it both ways, Lloyd played every game last season and he knows the system, I doubt many FA receivers can say that, and the rookies certainly can't.

Lloyd our best option? What did he do for us last post season vs the Ravens when Wes wasn't getting open? And if he knows the system, then it doesn't show that much. He may know the system but not quiet at the level that he should. And its not about having it both ways, but guys like Troy Brown and David Givens, and even Branch in his prime made the tough catches over the middle when they had to, during a time where defensive backs could abuse you and knock your head off and get away with it. And its not like they had to make those catches all of the time, maybe 3 or 4 every 6 games or so. But in the playoffs against the best defenses, those guys showed up and performed.. none were legitimate superstars. But they weren't afraid to get physical or get dirty.... And people act like a rookie or FA cannot come in and pick up the system, like its impossible. Then what did Randy Moss and Wes Welker do in 2007? What did Branch do in 2002? And just a year later? Julian Edelman's rookie year when he replaced the injured Wes? He did pretty good that year, no problem.. excuses. Then people are worried but yet we have the luxury of also having elite talent such as Aaron Hernandez, and receiving backs like Shane Vereen or good receiving TE that's really a starter in Jake Ballard as a backup? That's a blessing... and lets kick Michael Jenkins to the curb to, after all he has done nothing but develop experience, survive the league with a solid career and perform above average with below average quarterbacks...

 

[Snake Eyes]

Lloyd our best option? What did he do for us last post season vs the Ravens when Wes wasn't getting open? And if he knows the system, then it doesn't show that much. He may know the system but not quiet at the level that he should. And its not about having it both ways, but guys like Troy Brown and David Givens, and even Branch in his prime made the tough catches over the middle when they had to, during a time where defensive backs could abuse you and knock your head off and get away with it. And its not like they had to make those catches all of the time, maybe 3 or 4 every 6 games or so. But in the playoffs against the best defenses, those guys showed up and performed.. none were legitimate superstars. But they weren't afraid to get physical or get dirty.... And people act like a rookie or FA cannot come in and pick up the system, like its impossible. Then what did Randy Moss and Wes Welker do in 2007? What did Branch do in 2002? And just a year later? Julian Edelman's rookie year when he replaced the injured Wes? He did pretty good that year, no problem.. excuses. Then people are worried but yet we have the luxury of also having elite talent such as Aaron Hernandez, and receiving backs like Shane Vereen or good receiving TE that's really a starter in Jake Ballard as a backup? That's a blessing... and lets kick Michael Jenkins to the curb to, after all he has done nothing but develop experience, survive the league with a solid career and perform above average with below average quarterbacks...

- I don't care that Lloyd doesn't know the system as much as you think he should, he knows it better than any rookie will.

- Welker and Moss were both seasoned vets when they joined in 2007, something the rookies aren't.

- If Jenkins can beat out Lloyd in camp then I'm all for him getting the job but if Lloyd is as bad as you say why would I want Jenkins if he can't beat out Lloyd?

 

[Ring 6]

Lloyd our best option? What did he do for us last post season vs the Ravens when Wes wasn't getting open?

He caught 7 passes.

And if he knows the system, then it doesn't show that much. He may know the system but not quiet at the level that he should. And its not about having it both ways, but guys like Troy Brown and David Givens, and even Branch in his prime made the tough catches over the middle when they had to, during a time where defensive backs could abuse you and knock your head off and get away with it. And its not like they had to make those catches all of the time, maybe 3 or 4 every 6 games or so. But in the playoffs against the best defenses, those guys showed up and performed.. none were legitimate superstars. But they weren't afraid to get physical or get dirty.... And people act like a rookie or FA cannot come in and pick up the system, like its impossible. Then what did Randy Moss and Wes Welker do in 2007? What did Branch do in 2002? And just a year later? Julian Edelman's rookie year when he replaced the injured Wes?

You do realize Lloyd had more catches and yards last year than Deion Branch had in all but 1 season right? More of both than Givens ever had in a season? More than double what Edelman had in his best season?
More than Jenkins has ever had.
Understand that. Lloyds 2012 is Jenkins career year.

He did pretty good that year, no problem.. excuses. Then people are worried but yet we have the luxury of also having elite talent such as Aaron Hernandez, and receiving backs like Shane Vereen or good receiving TE that's really a starter in Jake Ballard as a backup? That's a blessing... and lets kick Michael Jenkins to the curb to, after all he has done nothing but develop experience, survive the league with a solid career and perform above average with below average quarterbacks...

I would want to see Jenkins beat out the guy who just had a better season than Jenkins has ever had in his life, on the field, not in your post.

If you thought Lloyd was terrible, imagine what you will be saying about Jenkins.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

- I don't care that Lloyd doesn't know the system as much as you think he should, he knows it better than any rookie will.

- Welker and Moss were both seasoned vets when they joined in 2007, something the rookies aren't.

- If Jenkins can beat out Lloyd in camp then I'm all for him getting the job but if Lloyd is as bad as you say why would I want Jenkins if he can't beat out Lloyd?

1) Why did Bill let Lloyd walk?

2) Amendola has been in the league as long as Wes has back in 2007

3) I left out that even Reche Caldwell picked up the system back in 2006

4) Deion Branch was drafted in 2002, picked up the system just fine.. begin to make big contributions just the following season.

5) Lloyd may know it better then the rookies, but that doesn't mean he can perform and translate it on the field better, and that doesn't mean he'll make a bigger impact either, and it also doesn't mean that they can't pick it up either at the same speed or a lot faster then what he did..

6) Last but not least, I didn't say he was bad but underachieved. What happened with 2010? When he blossomed under a worst quarterback but the same system right? Wasn't McDaniels with him both in Denver AND STL?

 

[Ring 6]

Will Boyce and Dobson realistically be more productive than Lloyd would be? I don't care that he wasn't what we wanted him to be, he is the best option at the moment.

It usually takes receivers a few years to adapt to the NFL game, and the Pats offense is more difficult to pick up than most teams, the idea that Dobson and Boyce are going to be more productive than Lloyd runs contrary to previous experience the Pats have had with rookie receivers.

Maybe a Lloyd-free receiving group would be better, maybe not.
I can envision the passing offense changing from Welker-centric to more varied.
With Gronk and Hernandez as walking mismatches it is not unrealistic that they could catch 200 passes between them. That will allow Amendola to fit in somewhere between the type of routes Welker excelled at and more outside routes, slants and deeper incuts. The other group of outside WRs can fill a role or share one that complements that 3 pronged focal point that replaced the Welker based scheme.
I could see Lloyd as better or left out in that change.
I'd rather see him here competing for the role than behind Jenkins, Jones, Hawkins by default.

 

[Snake Eyes]

1) Why did Bill let Lloyd walk?

2) Amendola has been in the league as long as Wes has back in 2007

3) I left out that even Reche Caldwell picked up the system back in 2006

4) Deion Branch was drafted in 2002, picked up the system just fine.. begin to make big contributions just the following season.

5) Lloyd may know it better then the rookies, but that doesn't mean he can perform and translate it on the field better, and that doesn't mean he'll make a bigger impact either, and it also doesn't mean that they can't pick it up either at the same speed or a lot faster then what he did..

6) Last but not least, I didn't say he was bad but underachieved. What happened with 2010? When he blossomed under a worst quarterback but the same system right? Wasn't McDaniels with him both in Denver AND STL?

- BB let Lloyd walk because of $, he wanted Lloyrd to restructure and take less money but Lloyd refused.

- I'm fine with Amendola being on the team and want him to contribute, I'm not sure why you're bringing him up.

- I'm not sure that Caldwell-level success is something we should be striving for

- Yes, Branch make big contributions after his rookie season, that leaves a gap in the mean time, and that's assuming the rookies have the level of success and chemistry with TFB that Branch had.

- How are the rookies going to have better success in the system if they don't know it? They might surpass Lloyd at some point, at which I'd be happy to see Lloyd leave the field, but until that happens the team is worse for not having Lloyd.

- I don't know why he had a much better 2010 than his 2012.

 

[supafly]

Yes, which means Lloyd will likely be more productive, and that's what gives us the best chance of winning. People crap on Lloyd because he goes down so easily but they also bemoan the fact that Gronk, who never goes down easily, is often hurt. You can't have it both ways, Lloyd played every game last season and he knows the system, I doubt many FA receivers can say that, and the rookies certainly can't.

I'm fine with bringing in Llyod if they can agree to terms and what his usage may be, unless of course there's something that we don't know about like the possibility that he was more of a pain in the *** than we heard about. If that's the case then it changes the thinking a bit.

Just to clarify my stance I copied my original post, which agrees with what you say. My only concern would be that Llyod envisions a bigger role/payday for himself at the moment.

I have no problem is Belichick chooses to bring in Llyod at some point for insurance/depth, but I don't think they'd be able to agree on his value myself.

I'd see Llyod as nothing better than a good option for WR3 at best, so that's where it gets tricky. Keep in mind our WR3 last season had a total of 21 catches. Unless Llyod is willing to take something around 1 million dollars (and I doubt he is at this point), I don't know if we have as much of a need for him as some here think.

After all, Llyod was really nothing more than an upgrade to the possession receiver role filled by Deion Branch in 2011 when he had 50 receptions. The major difference was that Llyod caught another 20 or so balls last year because he had 130 overall targets.

Would I be happy to see Llyod signed as a depth guy in a more limited role? Sure. I'd love to see him as a replacement for what Branch has been the past couple of yrs. My guess is that he's looking for something more however.

 

[Run DMC]

Lloyd is smart. Why get low-balled when he's better than any of the table scraps(with the exception of Danny) we have presently. Hey, it's just business, as cheapskate Kraft likes to say. We need him more than he needs us right now. We shall see.

 

[supafly]

Lloyd is smart. Why get low-balled when he's better than any of the table scraps(with the exception of Danny) we have presently. Hey, it's just business, as cheapskate Kraft likes to say. We need him more than he needs us right now. We shall see.

Based on the facts that we assume to be true, you may be right; but it's hard to really speculate too much when there could have been any number of things that could have come into the equation.

The team may have offered him 2.5m (or an approximation) to take over Branch's role--which recently paid him around 1 million. It's quite possible that Llyod felt there would be a greater market for his services than there is, while the team felt that their offer was more than adequately fair (and they very well could be right). I'm not sure we should rush to judgment about them being "cheap" just yet.

There's also the possibility of the whole "difficult to control" issue regarding manic depression/bi-polar disorder. We really don't have any idea how little or how much that issue may have been a factor. There's the possibility that Llyod may have been teetering on the border of a locker room problem for all we know.

There's also the thought that Belichick and company feel that just about anyone can get that kind of production when targeted 130 times as Llyod was last season...or they may feel that if he stayed he wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to that kind of production again due to their committment to having better TE's + the hope for health from Gronk/Hernandez. After all, one has to take that aspect of them only playing together 5x last year into the equation too.

Way too many different unknowns to automatically rush to the "cheap" card at the moment, at least in my opinion. Every penny of any money they save will go towards signing any one of a number of important upcoming players and/or free agents next season, and we will once again by happy that they are financially sound and well under the cap.

 

[DarrylS]

I think we will be fine, it may look awkward in September.. but by November it will once again resemble the Patriots Offensive Machine..

 

[DarrylS]

Lloyd is smart. Why get low-balled when he's better than any of the table scraps(with the exception of Danny) we have presently. Hey, it's just business, as cheapskate Kraft likes to say. We need him more than he needs us right now. We shall see.

"Cheapskate Kraft" is not how I would describe Mr. Kraft...

 

[chasa]

Lloyd is smart. Why get low-balled when he's better than any of the table scraps(with the exception of Danny) we have presently. Hey, it's just business, as cheapskate Kraft likes to say. We need him more than he needs us right now. We shall see.

you must be tuned into to different sources then me, last time i checked Lloyd has had ZERO workouts with other teams.

 

[Bruins29]

Lloyd is smart. Why get low-balled when he's better than any of the table scraps(with the exception of Danny) we have presently. Hey, it's just business, as cheapskate Kraft likes to say. We need him more than he needs us right now. We shall see.

God, what a bad post. And I am a Lloyd fan.

 

[Froob]

I think they should but, I wasn't in the locker room with the guy so it's hard to say just how big of a pain in the ass he was. It's hard to believe he doesn't have a job right now.

 

[randomk1]

I think they should but, I wasn't in the locker room with the guy so it's hard to say just how big of a pain in the ass he was. It's hard to believe he doesn't have a job right now.

Considering his production you would have to think that it is a big enough of an issue.