Linebacking Corps: Thoughts

[VrabelJr]

You should have done this about 3 years ago. He is a role player only. One of the main reasons why the Pats DON'T have a consistent pass rush. Sure, he tries hard, but, so do I. WFC about that...the Pats need a STUD!

Do you judge players based off name recognition only? Ninkovich was one of the best LDEs in the league last year. What role player plays 83% snaps?

 

[VrabelJr]

A guy like Minter of LSU could be that coverage type LB this group needs.

Spikes is just too slow for the NFL.

I like Minter but unfortunately having him on our team would be a luxury. I don't see him playing the Will in the NFL, he's just too good of a Mike.

 

[Deus Irae]

Do you judge players based off name recognition only? Ninkovich was one of the best LDEs in the league last year.

No, he wasn't.

What role player plays 83% snaps?

Typically, one who plays at a position of weakness for his team.

 

[VrabelJr]

No, he wasn't.



Typically, one who plays at a position of weakness for his team.

Name five 4-3 LDEs that played better than him last year.

 

[Deus Irae]

Name five 4-3 LDEs that played better than him last year.

Cameron Wake
Michael Bennett
Derek Wolfe
Cliff Avril
Brian Robison

 

[VrabelJr]

Cameron Wake
Michael Bennett
Derek Wolfe
Cliff Avril
Brian Robison

Wow. This should be easy. Here we go:

Cameron Wake is a RDE

Michael Bennett - he was used more as 3-tech DT than a DE last year. He moved around a bit though. If he were an LDE, why would the Seahawks also have signed Cliff Avril?

Derek Wolfe? Seriously? I'll give him credit for a good rookie year but he didn't out play Ninkovich. Even though he is listed as a DE he was used as more of an extra DT being how close to the line Von Miller plays.

Cliff Avril had 3 less Forced Fumbles, 4 less Fumble Recoveries and 1 less TFL while only having 1.5 more sacks than Ninkovich.

Brian Robison had 2 less Forced Fumbles, 3 less Fumble Recoveries, 4 less TFLs with only half a sack more than Ninkovich. Robison did due well in deflecting passes though.

Will the next Rob Ninkovich hater please stand up.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow. This should be easy. Here we go:

Cameron Wake is a RDE

Michael Bennett - he was used more as 3-tech DT than a DE last year. He moved around a bit though. If he were an LDE, why would the Seahawks also have signed Cliff Avril?

Derek Wolfe? Seriously? I'll give him credit for a good rookie year but he didn't out play Ninkovich. Even though he is listed as a DE he was used as more of an extra DT being how close to the line Von Miller plays.

Cliff Avril had 3 less Forced Fumbles, 4 less Fumble Recoveries and 1 less TFL while only having 1.5 more sacks than Ninkovich.

Brian Robison had 2 less Forced Fumbles, 3 less Fumble Recoveries, 4 less TFLs with only half a sack more than Ninkovich. Robison did due well in deflecting passes though.

Will the next Rob Ninkovich hater please stand up.

Wake plays the left, and all 5 were better than Ninkovich last year. You asked. I supplied.

And I don't hate Ninkovich.

 

[Ring 6]

Do you judge players based off name recognition only? Ninkovich was one of the best LDEs in the league last year. What role player plays 83% snaps?

Seriously if you think that, then you didn't watch games and just read a stat sheet

 

[VrabelJr]

Seriously if you think that, then you didn't watch games and just read a stat sheet

I did watch the games. Who on our defense made the biggest plays when we needed them more consistently than Ninkovich?

 

[belichick010405]

It is truly amazing how many do not know anything about this teams' defense.

Ninkovich did just about everything that one could ask for at left defensive end.

As far as labeling Ninkovich being a role player....LOL.

Everyone on the Patriots is a role player. Ninkovich was one of the impact role players who caused more turnovers than anyone in the front 7.

And, this is not a strong linebacking unit in passing situations. They need another 4-3 linebacker that can play three downs.

As far as I am concerned, Hightower and Spikes are good against the run but are mediocre to poor against the pass and there is no eye test or statistical perspective that disproves that.

The fact that the Pats are looking at the possibility of drafting a 4th linebacker proves that they are looking to upgrade at this spot.

Dane Fletcher - please......Anyone who thinks that Dane Fletcher is the solution should go buy his jersey in hopes that he is going to be with the Patriots much like how Myron Pryor is going to be a contributor on this defense as well.

 

[belichick010405]

Wake plays the left, and all 5 were better than Ninkovich last year. You asked. I supplied.

And I don't hate Ninkovich.

And for you -

Wake plays right defensive end. Odrick plays LDE. Wolfe played equal snaps at DT. I really liked Robison's game last year and I felt that he was more productive than Jared Allen in 2012. Bennett and Avril couldn't touch what Ninkovich did last year.

So - Deus got one guy on his list that had comparable performance to Ninkovich in Robison.

Commencing shaking head at those that think they know something when in fact they don't.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow. This should be easy. Here we go:

Cameron Wake is a RDE

I hate using PFF, and you should be ashamed of yourself for not remembering that Wake was going against Vollmer, but they've got pictures, so here you go:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/06/marquee-matchups-leaving-vollmer-in-his-wake/

 

[Ring 6]

I did watch the games. Who on our defense made the biggest plays when we needed them more consistently than Ninkovich?

He made a couple of big plays. The sack in OT vs the Jets, the Int.
But to call Rob Ninkovich consistent is implying you did not watch the games.
His pass rush was pathetic most of the time. He got as little pressure as any DE in the NFL. Don't just look at a sack # the majority of which came from the QB being flushed out to him near the los.
Ninkovich is a solid player who can do a lot of different things decently. But as a full time pass rusher he is really, really weak.

 

[belichick010405]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/16/2013-defensive-prototypes-defensive-line/

9-Technique (4-3 DRE) – Cameron Wake

The 9-technique is the speed-rushing defensive end in a 4-3, and is usually used more in obvious pass-rushing situations rather than as an every-down alignment. The Lions and Eagles have used the famous ‘wide-9’ alignment in their base defense, but both have found the limitations of doing that for every snap of the game.

The 9-tech lines up well outside of the tackle, and outside of the TE (if there is one to that side of the formation). If there is no TE present, the alignment can look almost ridiculous because of how wide the end is lining up for his rush. This position was typified by Dwight Freeney for years, but the mantle has passed now to Cameron Wake, who is the new standard by which pass-rushing 4-3 DEs are measured. Wake is one of the best pure pass rushers in football and seems to be able to get to the corner any time he wants to with his speed and burst off the ball. The width which the 9-tech aligns forces offensive tackles to panic and over commit to the edge rush, opening up the inside for the devastating counter move that can be a quarterback’s ticket to the locker room with an injury.

Wake lined up against Vollmer so that Solder's effectiveness against him could be neutralized. One game does not present where he normally lines up.

 

[DocHoliday]

I like Ninko, but he is the king of effort sacks.

He'll take advantage of your glaring mistakes, but he won't force you to give up a sack. He lacks the raging, brute force this team needs.

 

[cstjohn17]

I like Ninko, but he is the king of effort sacks.

He'll take advantage of your glaring mistakes, but he won't force you to give up a sack. He lacks the raging, brute force this team needs.

Bingo, solid, steady, hard working but not an specialist. On 3rd downs the team could use someone who can close the deal.

 

[Sfpat]

Nickovich spent most of the season locked up with the RT far away from the play. Would have been better to put on a waltz and let the two dance away.

 

[Brady6]

It's a very good 3-4 LB corps. It gets exposed in the 4-3, particularly against the pass, because Hightower and Spikes are both weak links in the 4-3. If they had the 3-4 DEs, they'd be better off switching their base back. As it is, they've got Fletcher as the coverage LB, and they'll probably be scouring the cuts list for others to come in and fill that role, as well.

The LB's actually fit best in a 4-3 under base.

Sam - Hightower, Ninkovich
Mike - Spikes, Rivera
Will - Mayo, Fletcher

 

[Brady6]

Wow. This should be easy. Here we go:

Cameron Wake is a RDE

Michael Bennett - he was used more as 3-tech DT than a DE last year. He moved around a bit though. If he were an LDE, why would the Seahawks also have signed Cliff Avril?

Derek Wolfe? Seriously? I'll give him credit for a good rookie year but he didn't out play Ninkovich. Even though he is listed as a DE he was used as more of an extra DT being how close to the line Von Miller plays.

Cliff Avril had 3 less Forced Fumbles, 4 less Fumble Recoveries and 1 less TFL while only having 1.5 more sacks than Ninkovich.

Brian Robison had 2 less Forced Fumbles, 3 less Fumble Recoveries, 4 less TFLs with only half a sack more than Ninkovich. Robison did due well in deflecting passes though.

Will the next Rob Ninkovich hater please stand up.

I don't think you can compare Ninkovich with other left defensive ends. We played an odd 4-3 with Ninkovich being used more as the open defensive end. His role would compare more with Dumervil in Denver, Clemons in Seattle to name a few. Initially when he was being used as the closed defensive end he had significant struggles getting off blocks and setting the edge. Jones was much better however his pass rush diminished significantly when he took on the closed end responsibilities.

Ninkovich isn't a defensive end in a 4-3 base defense he is a Sam who can play defensive end in sub packages.

I don't hate Ninkovich either.

 

[Brady6]

Wow. This should be easy. Here we go:

Cameron Wake is a RDE

Michael Bennett - he was used more as 3-tech DT than a DE last year. He moved around a bit though. If he were an LDE, why would the Seahawks also have signed Cliff Avril?

Derek Wolfe? Seriously? I'll give him credit for a good rookie year but he didn't out play Ninkovich. Even though he is listed as a DE he was used as more of an extra DT being how close to the line Von Miller plays.

Cliff Avril had 3 less Forced Fumbles, 4 less Fumble Recoveries and 1 less TFL while only having 1.5 more sacks than Ninkovich.

Brian Robison had 2 less Forced Fumbles, 3 less Fumble Recoveries, 4 less TFLs with only half a sack more than Ninkovich. Robison did due well in deflecting passes though.

Will the next Rob Ninkovich hater please stand up.

Wolfe and Bennett played in under fronts so they're stats are mis-leading. Seattle signed Avril to play RDE and LDE in sub packages they signed Bennett to play LDE in their base 4-3 and inside in sub packages so they can move Red Bryant inside full time to replace Branch. We should of signed Bennett he'd of been a great fit and allowed us to bring Armstead along slower.